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Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » General

Subject: The number of KS exclusives a balance problem down the road? rss

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Kaganishu Khan
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Hi everyone,

I am about to jump into MB, having looked through all the info, but there is one glaring issue that I d like your perspective on:

This KS has a LOT of exclusive content. A LOT. Given that every miniature "competes" with several others for the same point value, something that is probably known quite well to tabletop wargamers, chances are some are better than others.

Now, I expect several of the KS exclusives to be these great choices, and them being unavailable later on is really bad for the balance of the game in general. Someone who bought a retailer base game would basically either be annoyed they can never have all these competitive choices, or the KS exclusives have to be intentionally weaker as to not skew the meta.

MB seems quite similar to Imperial Assault Skirmish in that regard, but IA didnt have any exclusives: Imagine if the Royal Guard would have been a KS exclusive - basically all the Imperial players without it would have been screwed.

Do you share this concern, or have any perspectives that might alleviate it?

thank you!
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L S
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Well, the point of MBP's drafting phase is that all players draft their armies from a shared pool. If you're playing with a KS copy, that pool will contain exclusives, if you're playing with a retail copy, there will be less units to choose from - for all players.

The only competitive disadvantage I could see for players who don't own the exclusives themselves is that they won't be familiar with them should they happen to join a game where a KS copy is used.

That said, while the creators have said that plans for organized play are in the works, we haven't heard anything final about the intended format (whether "official" tournaments will include KS exclusives or not).
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Daniel Guinoza
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Khaunshar wrote:
Imagine if the Royal Guard would have been a KS exclusive
have any perspectives that might alleviate it?


If you don't have KSE units:

-Devs are willing to errata any overpowered card (which is healthy regardless if it is KSE or not).

-You can only not use it if the format is draft what you own or premade armies (both formats which i advocate as lending leads to a whole set of new issues not seen in competitive games). In short: unless it is a world tournament, you have little to worry.

-It is not like they will be more expensive than "emperor palpatine", a major money sink (between $50-100 without considering shipping a really big box) in x-wing, a game in a similar vein as IA. In IA, you need to get maps, which is really stupid and a similar money sink. Why am I talking about money? Because you can always get KSE's from ebay. And for cheaper than emperor palpatine or a big box expansion required for an IA map. Exclusivity can be bought, which is basically the same as expensive upgrade cards in x-wing, expensive required maps in IA, or expensive singles in games like MTG (KSE units in MBP will be far cheaper than MTG playsets).

In other words, you can play with other people's units unless it is a world tournament, and even then you can always get them from ebay with an investment lower than other competitive board games. They are only other balanced options, and if they prove to be OP they will be nerfed.

Edit: familiarity is not an issue. NEVER. in MTG, you are not expected to cry because you can't afford a black lotus, tarmogoyf, or a playset of the latest mythic rares. You simply look at the public information available online, proxy it if you really need to practice before a major tournament and move on.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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There are so many ways to circumvent that problem, from natural balance via drafting through "limited" formats that I do not see it as a problem at all.
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Benoit VOGT
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Most of the tournaments should not include the KSE Units. Only some "private" events will use them. But note that not owning the KSE miniatures does not prevent you from participating to these events, you'll simply have less choices to draft from.
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Mike
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A major problem with a game like this and tournaments is whose stuff are you going to use? Maybe a big convention where the publisher brings enough copies for everyone to use is fine. But if I paint my figures, I don't really want some dude I don't know grabbing my figures and manhandling them. Traditionally, miniature games that have tournaments everyone has their own force and only messes with their own minis. Yes, I know. Big deal! Why the worry? Basically because I have seen enough sore losers and disrespectful people that it can be a problem.
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Aditya C
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TheDarkKnight wrote:
A major problem with a game like this and tournaments is whose stuff are you going to use? Maybe a big convention where the publisher brings enough copies for everyone to use is fine. But if I paint my figures, I don't really want some dude I don't know grabbing my figures and manhandling them. Traditionally, miniature games that have tournaments everyone has their own force and only messes with their own minis. Yes, I know. Big deal! Why the worry? Basically because I have seen enough sore losers and disrespectful people that it can be a problem.


I think it's possible to each bring your own game and just allow drafting from your own pool and allow no duplicates. And make it so that there is a limited point worth of units you can bring to the match.
 
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Ben Clapperton
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I expect both players will bring the same pool of units and use their own minis once the draft is done.
 
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M. S.
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TheDarkKnight wrote:
... I don't really want some dude I don't know grabbing my figures and manhandling them. Traditionally, miniature games that have tournaments everyone has their own force and only messes with their own minis. Yes, I know. Big deal! Why the worry? Basically because I have seen enough sore losers and disrespectful people that it can be a problem.

Is this really a common problem, read some other post that was along those lines?

I've never been into tournaments so I can't reference personal experience, but that doesn't sound like it would change my mind since it looks like the social experience of board gaming would be lost on the way.
 
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Mike
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Tournament scenes are often less friendly than your local group meetup tends to be. You guys are certainly welcome to do whatever you want. I'm sure it will be fine.
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J P
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TheDarkKnight wrote:
Tournament scenes are often less friendly than your local group meetup tends to be. You guys are certainly welcome to do whatever you want. I'm sure it will be fine.


Having played in a few X-Wing tournaments, I can say that this is pretty true. Those people are hard core and can be pretty rude. Several friends and I were actually pretty turned off to the whole game after our experiences at a local tournament.
 
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Game tournaments are really not my cup of tea. To me it takes too seriously things that are supposed to be fun. But I understand the desire to have a tournament scene for the game.
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Benoit0905 wrote:
Most of the tournaments should not include the KSE Units. Only some "private" events will use them. But note that not owning the KSE miniatures does not prevent you from participating to these events, you'll simply have less choices to draft from.

Of course we are looking ahead more than a year into the future - but this makes me wonder.

It has been communicated that the game will be released in retail and if it's a succes, you will release the big boxes as well. Not sure if that includes Hera, Poseidon, Prometheus or also the titans (as it was said there would be no more "big box" after Hera). Of the small boxes and stretch goals it was said it wasn't likely that they would ever be available and if so, most probably not all of them.

In any case, that still leaves us with a big discrepancy between available units in retail compared to what the all-in KickStarter backers have at their disposal, even when not taking KSE into account. Those being the stretch goals and the small boxes.

How will those be treated at tournaments?
 
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Willem Verheij
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I think for tournaments to be organised, more content in stores would need to be available than just the basegame.

Personally I feel no need to play any tournaments, even if I would find out to have a knack for creating synergies. I'm just not competitive. I'd be happy enough to find people to play the game with. The more the merrier.

 
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zinho73 wrote:
Game tournaments are really not my cup of tea. To me it takes too seriously things that are supposed to be fun. But I understand the desire to have a tournament scene for the game.

agreed, I understand that some like the competitive aspects of gaming and that this direction also helps keeping games alive, but that just not what I am looking for.

I take a relaxing gaming evening with friends and a good whiskey in a comfortable setting over a competitive tournament any day, even if I loose every game on that evening.
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Itai Perez
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Teowulff wrote:
Benoit0905 wrote:
Most of the tournaments should not include the KSE Units. Only some "private" events will use them. But note that not owning the KSE miniatures does not prevent you from participating to these events, you'll simply have less choices to draft from.

Of course we are looking ahead more than a year into the future - but this makes me wonder.

It has been communicated that the game will be released in retail and if it's a succes, you will release the big boxes as well. Not sure if that includes Hera, Poseidon, Prometheus or also the titans (as it was said there would be no more "big box" after Hera). Of the small boxes and stretch goals it was said it wasn't likely that they would ever be available and if so, most probably not all of them.

In any case, that still leaves us with a big discrepancy between available units in retail compared to what the all-in KickStarter backers have at their disposal, even when not taking KSE into account. Those being the stretch goals and the small boxes.

How will those be treated at tournaments?


I'm sure Mythic Games would be delighted to sell in retail everything not exclusive from this KS. The problem is that in retail, their client is the distributor, who is the one deciding what he wants to buy. And the distributor decisions are determined by what the retail shops ask them.

So the base box will go to retail, that's sure at this point. For anything else, it will depend on how well the game sells in retail. If the retail shops are happy with the sales of the game, they'll ask for more (and the big boxes are easier to sell, so they'll ask for that first). If they are very happy, they'll ask for much more (everything else). If they are not happy, we may end up with much more exclusive stuff than we think (but given how good the game is, I don't think it will happen).

We'll just have to wait and see.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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asgorn wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Game tournaments are really not my cup of tea. To me it takes too seriously things that are supposed to be fun. But I understand the desire to have a tournament scene for the game.

agreed, I understand that some like the competitive aspects of gaming and that this direction also helps keeping games alive, but that just not what I am looking for.

I take a relaxing gaming evening with friends and a good whiskey in a comfortable setting over a competitive tournament any day, even if I loose every game on that evening.


That's the way to do it
 
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Gustavo Sanchez
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asgorn wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Game tournaments are really not my cup of tea. To me it takes too seriously things that are supposed to be fun. But I understand the desire to have a tournament scene for the game.

agreed, I understand that some like the competitive aspects of gaming and that this direction also helps keeping games alive, but that just not what I am looking for.

I take a relaxing gaming evening with friends and a good whiskey in a comfortable setting over a competitive tournament any day, even if I loose every game on that evening.


I couldn't care less for tournaments also.
 
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Mike
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I love stats and facts and this discussion has me curious. Does anyone know of a board game that was Kickstarted and included a ton of exclusives that went on to have a decent tournament scene? I was trying to come up with one and could not think of any on my own. I know there have been some successful card games like Star Realms post Kickstarter, but I have never seen a tournament for it.
 
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Emivaldo Sousa
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TheDarkKnight wrote:
I love stats and facts and this discussion has me curious. Does anyone know of a board game that was Kickstarted and included a ton of exclusives that went on to have a decent tournament scene? I was trying to come up with one and could not think of any on my own. I know there have been some successful card games like Star Realms post Kickstarter, but I have never seen a tournament for it.


I don't think most of the successful ones were even interested in that. CMON, SOB, KDM, Cthulhu Wars maybe? I can't think of anyone.
 
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D Conklin
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zinho73 wrote:
TheDarkKnight wrote:
I love stats and facts and this discussion has me curious. Does anyone know of a board game that was Kickstarted and included a ton of exclusives that went on to have a decent tournament scene? I was trying to come up with one and could not think of any on my own. I know there have been some successful card games like Star Realms post Kickstarter, but I have never seen a tournament for it.


I don't think most of the successful ones were even interested in that. CMON, SOB, KDM, Cthulhu Wars maybe? I can't think of anyone.


Deadzone and even more-so Dreadball by Mantic seem to have a little bit of a scene around here.
 
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