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Subject: [S] Is fantasy dangerous? rss

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Mike Stiles
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There's been a movement over the last few years to heavily censor porn over the idea that the things depicted, if they were actually real would be illegal.

This generally applies to ageplay and things like vore and exteme body mod.

So here's my question, can people here justify that the fantasies/depictions (presuming no actual crimes) are dangerous and lead to victimization?

Sure seems to me like this is a comfort thing.
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Andrew Laws
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An associated idea. If violent fantasies in videogames caused violence then our societies would have seen an explosion in violence since the Atari debuted way back when.

Instead our societies have become safer and safer, year on year.

EDIT: I am no way saying fantasy videogame violence is a CAUSE of declining crime rates.
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HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
An associated idea. If violent fantasies in videogames caused violence then our societies would have seen an explosion in violence since the Atari debuted way back when.

Instead our societies have become safer and safer, year on year.
Except that sex has a much stronger, primal pleasure-reward mechanic built into it which changes the dynamics. I'm not saying porn is worse or anything, I'm just pointing out that comparing violence in videogames to non-normative sex in porn is probably apples and oranges.
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Mike Stiles
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TheChin! wrote:
HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
An associated idea. If violent fantasies in videogames caused violence then our societies would have seen an explosion in violence since the Atari debuted way back when.

Instead our societies have become safer and safer, year on year.
Except that sex has a much stronger, primal pleasure-reward mechanic built into it which changes the dynamics. I'm not saying porn is worse or anything, I'm just pointing out that comparing violence in videogames to non-normative sex in porn is probably apples and oranges.


It's also a pressure that is, if you will, relieved. The physical drive is greater for the fantasy, but the physical payoff is much greater as well.
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They could REVAMP some 'old arcade classics' unto "signages of the times" with: "Safe Space Invaders"; or "Ms-Transgender formerly-Pac-MAN"; etc. /sauron\
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Andrew Laws
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TheChin! wrote:
I'm not saying porn is worse or anything, I'm just pointing out that comparing violence in videogames to non-normative sex in porn is probably apples and oranges.


I'd agree on that.

I don't think it's non-normative sex in porn (BDSM etc.) that's the problem, it's the people who don't understand that such sex is theatrical roleplay and even though the submissive might be acting like they are powerless or non-consenting, they are actually the one's in control.

Then they go out into the world operating with ideas that submissives (men or women) actually like violence and degradation, when actually it's the opposite.

In fairness it's a goddam mind-bender, and took me a while to comprehend.
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Andrew Laws
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windsagio wrote:
There's been a movement over the last few years to heavily censor porn over the idea that the things depicted, if they were actually real would be illegal.


I've thought about this a bit more. As Oscar Wilde said: "Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power."

I think broadly that human beings have no problem with two (or more) people approaching sex on a reasonably even footing and then consenting to a power imbalance for the sexual act. I think we instinctively dislike the idea of power imbalances when they become extreme (teachers over pupils, bosses over subordinates) or when one party's power is zero such as child abuse or rape. Then we step in and implement laws to restrict, to an extent, the use of power to obtain sex, as it implies an erosion of consent.

I think given that, I don't have any problems with porn where the crux of the fantasy is BDSM, or body mod, or even being eaten alive, but I do have a problem with porn where the crux is zero consent and force, as opposed to violence.

Interesting topic.
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Mike Stiles
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I'd argue there's a very strong gap between 'the concept of no consent' and 'actual no consent'.

If people get a charge off of it, they also clearly know the difference.
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Mac Mcleod
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What about the need by people to escalate the stimulation to get the same high?

Tho I wouldn't run society based on the behavior of a few addicts.
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Mike Stiles
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maxo-texas wrote:
What about the need by people to escalate the stimulation to get the same high?

Tho I wouldn't run society based on the behavior of a few addicts.


The essential answer is that someone so pathological as to commit a crime is pathological. Their entertainment is a sign of their interest, but not of their urge to 'cross the line' as they say.

I think it'd be the same line harlemmimeschool used above; as with violence, there's no evidence that the simulation actually would feed criminal activity associated with the simulation. This is as true of sex as it is of violence.

(maybe less true, to some degree an orgasm is an orgasm)
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HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
An associated idea. If violent fantasies in videogames caused violence then our societies would have seen an explosion in violence since the Atari debuted way back when.

Instead our societies have become safer and safer, year on year.

EDIT: I am no way saying fantasy videogame violence is a CAUSE of declining crime rates.

I fail to see why you didn't bring up the point, at the same time, that despite the vastly increased availability of (simulated and real) child porn, rape porn, etc during the past 15 years or so, there has been no associated increase in sexual violence in this country, in fact, the opposite is true. To me that pretty much means "case closed" on the issue.
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Les Marshall
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HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
An associated idea. If violent fantasies in videogames caused violence then our societies would have seen an explosion in violence since the Atari debuted way back when.

Instead our societies have become safer and safer, year on year.

EDIT: I am no way saying fantasy videogame violence is a CAUSE of declining crime rates.


And you shouldn't. There are many pet theories about violent crime reduction in the US. We do have record levels of incarceration so it's easy to make assumptions about the crime rates if the prisons were depopulated. There is at least on economic theory that abortion rates in certain demographics have reduced the number of youngish males who are generally more likely to engage in violent crime.

We may actually be experiencing a strange juxtaposition in which young people are being desensitized to consequences by violent imagery in pop culture games and movies/television while at the same time having criminal expressions held down by other factors.

I'm no expert on the psychology of sexual crime but, it does seem that violent sexual fantasies expressed in film might well be at least a stopping off point for predators if not outright encouraging them. Suppressing those types of films may well have only a marginal effect on crime rates, if any. Aside from violent crime they may also suggest dangerous or risky behavior in willing participants which is really little different from extreme sports though the subject matter may be more distasteful to the average viewer.

This is probably a topic we'll be wrestling with for some time though perhaps, a more conservative unified government may take some attempts to curtail this phenomena. Given Trumps persona it seems he might be a little ambivalent.
 
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Andrew Laws
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sfox wrote:
HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
An associated idea. If violent fantasies in videogames caused violence then our societies would have seen an explosion in violence since the Atari debuted way back when.

Instead our societies have become safer and safer, year on year.

EDIT: I am no way saying fantasy videogame violence is a CAUSE of declining crime rates.

I fail to see why you didn't bring up the point, at the same time, that despite the vastly increased availability of (simulated and real) child porn, rape porn, etc during the past 15 years or so, there has been no associated increase in sexual violence in this country, in fact, the opposite is true. To me that pretty much means "case closed" on the issue.


Because when I posted I didn't have confidence that such an assertion was true.

Since then I dug up:

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf

Which indicates sexual violence rates in the US have fallen 58% 1994-2010, so yeah, agreed.

NOTE: I'm trying a new thing, where I aim to have opinions that I'm reasonably confident in, rather than what I saw on a Facebook feed, heard on talk radio, or what I'd like to be true if I closed my eyes real hard. Occasionally I have a go at being even-handed, and sometimes even suggest uncertainty in my conclusions.

Americans in particular find this new approach disturbing.
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Mike Stiles
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It's just RSP tone, nothing to worry about ><

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I feel like anything can have the potential to be dangerous, even fantasy. I obviously don't believe sexual fantasy/kink/porn is more dangerous than fetishized violence (even though it's certainly treated as such by some countries). But I also don't believe that they're necessarily distinct entities, since nothing exists in an isolated bubble. Does increased, stylized violence in media contribute to an increase in more violent kinks?

Possibly, with some people. It's really difficult to measure.

It's not ridiculous to acknowledge that our tastes are probably informed by the media we consume, and you can't really cherry pick what is and isn't going to leave an impression ("exposure to violence in video games is probably fine for people, but violence in pornography... that's where I draw the line!"). Which is part of why I'm against censorship overall. With an increase of diverse subjects/approaches to media (including pornography), at least it's not just one narrative being told.

That's not really to the point of the OP, though. Just musing on the porn vs. violence thing. It IS comparing apples to oranges somewhat, but it's all still fruit in the fruit bowl at the end of the day.

Within a puritanical culture that has a tendency to glorify violence and look at sex as kind of shameful over all, then porn becomes a pretty easy target. Many people don't want to talk about it, let alone dissect it in the interest of understanding it, and they'd rather just outlaw it altogether so they don't have to.

I have faith that the majority of people don't go around wishing they could break laws, even if they occasionally fantasize about doing something that would technically be illegal, insane, or physically impossible. Assuming that everyone involved is a rational human being, I have a hard time believing that fantasy is unsafe.

It's when you add irrational actors, addicts, and extremists to the mix that things become unsafe... but again, while the fantasy material they consume (video games, movies, pornography*) might give you hints as to their specific tastes, there's the argument that they could be dangerous regardless. I've seen no evidence that banning specific material would stop a dangerous person from acting in a dangerous way... nor would it stop a self-destructive person from self-destructing. You can always find an avenue for that. I have seen anecdotal evidence that fantasy can help act as an outlet for channeling potentially harmful or dangerous behaviors into something more appropriate or cathartic. That's why you find a lot of people in the bdsm community who feel that there are therapeutic benefits to their play.



*I'm going to go ahead and specify that anything illegal depicted in the porn would be roleplay only, even though I felt that was pretty clear in your post? There are the greater crimes of human trafficking, abuse, and so forth that have gone into creating certain kinds of porn, which should obviously be regulated against... in which case I suppose we know for a fact that fantasy can lead to victimization in a broad sense.
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Les Marshall
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HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
sfox wrote:
HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
An associated idea. If violent fantasies in videogames caused violence then our societies would have seen an explosion in violence since the Atari debuted way back when.

Instead our societies have become safer and safer, year on year.

EDIT: I am no way saying fantasy videogame violence is a CAUSE of declining crime rates.

I fail to see why you didn't bring up the point, at the same time, that despite the vastly increased availability of (simulated and real) child porn, rape porn, etc during the past 15 years or so, there has been no associated increase in sexual violence in this country, in fact, the opposite is true. To me that pretty much means "case closed" on the issue.


Because when I posted I didn't have confidence that such an assertion was true.

Since then I dug up:

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf

Which indicates sexual violence rates in the US have fallen 58% 1994-2010, so yeah, agreed.

NOTE: I'm trying a new thing, where I aim to have opinions that I'm reasonably confident in, rather than what I saw on a Facebook feed, heard on talk radio, or what I'd like to be true if I closed my eyes real hard. Occasionally I have a go at being even-handed, and sometimes even suggest uncertainty in my conclusions.

Americans in particular find this new approach disturbing.


How terribly adult of you
 
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I'm really hesitant about synthetic child pornography -- there might be a cathartic effect, but I strongly doubt it given how things like that typically work.

That's one of those precautionary principle things where it seems like the result might be so intensely negative that I don't know how to begin studying it in any real way.

Plus it's political suicide, so it's not gonna happen.
 
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TSpeaks wrote:


*I'm going to go ahead and specify that anything illegal depicted in the porn would be roleplay only, even though I felt that was pretty clear in your post? There are the greater crimes of human trafficking, abuse, and so forth that have gone into creating certain kinds of porn, which should obviously be regulated against... in which case I suppose we know for a fact that fantasy can lead to victimization in a broad sense.


Yeah the intent is to talk about roleplay and artistic rendition not any actual criminal acts.
 
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Terwox wrote:
I'm really hesitant about synthetic child pornography -- there might be a cathartic effect, but I strongly doubt it given how things like that typically work.


Elaborate?
 
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hyperbolus wrote:
Park Dietz the forensic psychologist who worked a lot with Jeffrey Dahmer has the opinion that sex and violence should NEVER be mixed. A porn movie with weapons involved is a bad idea. But interestingly this rule seems to be broken more in R-rated movies. How many times have you watched the latest action movie and the hero either kills 20 people then has sex or has sex then kills 20 people that seems to be constant.

Park Dietz also recommended that a mass killer's name should never be repeated in news coverage. This glorifies the killer and inspires more people to get the attention and "glory" the killer received.


With him on the second part, completely disagree with the first. Lots of people mix sex and consensual violence on a regular basis. The vast majority of those people know how to keep it safe and sane.

I'd extend the same to fantasy depictions of sex and violence. If it were really that dangerous, we should have seen it in the crime stats by now, but violent crime keeps sinking.
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HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
I'm not saying porn is worse or anything, I'm just pointing out that comparing violence in videogames to non-normative sex in porn is probably apples and oranges.


I'd agree on that.

I don't think it's non-normative sex in porn (BDSM etc.) that's the problem, it's the people who don't understand that such sex is theatrical roleplay and even though the submissive might be acting like they are powerless or non-consenting, they are actually the one's in control.

Well that should be solved by more education. Although quite a lot of people seem extremely reluctant for basic sex and relationship education and I guess would be averse to any mention of porn (including kink stuff) as part of those lessons.
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Again, I don't think you can avoid the intermingling of it from the creative standpoint. Even without looking at horror movies or R rated action movies where 20 people are gunned down followed by sex, a lot of media has forceful slaps/pushing/grabbing followed by passionate kisses, deadly seduction by femme fatales, sex-as-a-reward-for-saving-the-day... tamer stuff that is a lot more subtle, but still implies that sex and violence go hand in hand. Sure, there's crazier stuff (violent porn, horror movies, torture porn, whathaveyou) that takes the tropes to their more horrific extremes, but that's exactly the sort of thing I would prefer be explored in fantasy and art rather than reality.

As someone who does mix sex and violence on a regular basis both in my art and IRL, I have bias. Naturally, I wouldn't want the things I personally like to be censored. However, as someone who cares about my own psychological well-being and that of my partners, I am interested in causality and where lines should be drawn so as not to do irrevocable damage to myself or the ones I love. As such, I don't actually harm certain partners as much as they fantasize about me harming them... but there isn't much I can do to dissuade them from fantasizing about it, and I don't think that fantasy is necessarily harmful on its own. Acting out those fantasies becomes an interesting creative challenge, not entirely unlike other nonsexual forms of play, tbh.

If someone is highly susceptible to impression and struggles to differentiate reality from fantasy, that person should probably be discouraged from engaging in roleplay or consuming violent media. I'd also hesitate to engage in tabletop roleplay with that person, let alone the sexual sort. Electing tastemakers to decide what is and isn't problematic material and banning the stuff they don't like might seem reasonable to some, but I don't think it's all that effective towards actual crime and mostly just criminalizes those of us who do follow the law. I'm equally skeptical of banning guns because of mass shootings, or banning cars because of bad drivers. I'd hate to see my fictional sex cannibal porn made illegal because of Jeffrey Dahmer.
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HarlemMimeSchool wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
I'm not saying porn is worse or anything, I'm just pointing out that comparing violence in videogames to non-normative sex in porn is probably apples and oranges.


I'd agree on that.

I don't think it's non-normative sex in porn (BDSM etc.) that's the problem, it's the people who don't understand that such sex is theatrical roleplay and even though the submissive might be acting like they are powerless or non-consenting, they are actually the one's in control.

Then they go out into the world operating with ideas that submissives (men or women) actually like violence and degradation, when actually it's the opposite.

In fairness it's a goddam mind-bender, and took me a while to comprehend.


I think you have a very narrow view about sexuality. For some people, perhaps many I don't know, unless there is real danger involved it just isn't the same. So blather on all you want about "control" but it is only for people who want to simulate certain sexual situations. Other people don't want these situations simulated, but they do want the danger to be handled by someone they trust. There is a huge difference there, in the first the danger is non-existent, in the second it is very real and can have very real consequences. And then there is a small minority that wants the danger delivered by someone who they really don't know if they trust.
 
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What is dangerous is people forcing their PERSONAL standards on others.

I suggest you get a sock puppet account at fetlife.com and start reading peoples journal posts. You will learn so much about consent, respect and what makes some people tick..

Why not talk to the people who engage in kink and understand it, rather than odd-bods who want to "manage" them?

It's all subjective anyway. I actually think facebook is a little dangerous..
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Georg von Lemberg
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antiussentiment wrote:
Why not talk to the people who engage in kink and understand it,


You sound like the priest who told me to wait till marriage to have sex, and who told other kids that being gay was wrong. There are as many kinks as there are people and your particular group appeals to your particular group. It doesn't necessarily appeal to the rest of the world.
 
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