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Subject: How about some angry Bernie? rss

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Sanders Statement on Carrier and Outsourcing

Quote:
Saturday, November 26, 2016

BURLINGTON, Vt., Nov. 26 – U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) issued the following statement Saturday:

“During the campaign, Donald Trump made a 100 percent commitment to prevent United Technologies from shipping 2,100 jobs from Indiana to Mexico. All of us need to hold Mr. Trump accountable to make sure that he keeps this promise.

“Let’s be clear: it is not good enough to save some of these jobs. We cannot rest until United Technologies signs a firm contract to keep all of these good-paying jobs in Indiana without slashing the salaries or benefits workers have earned.

“United Technologies is not going broke. Last year, it made a profit of $7.6 billion and received over $6 billion in defense contracts. It has also received more than $50 million in corporate welfare from the Export-Import Bank and very generous tax breaks.

“In 2014, United Technologies gave its former CEO Louis Chenevert a golden parachute worth over $172 million. Last year, the company’s five highest paid executives made over $50 million. The firm also spent $12 billion to inflate its stock price instead of using that money to invest in new plants and workers.

“I call on Mr. Trump to make it clear to the CEO of United Technologies that if his firm wants to receive another defense contract from the taxpayers of this country, it must not move these plants to Mexico.

“We need to send a very loud and very clear message to corporate America: the era of outsourcing is over. Instead of offshoring jobs, the time has come for you to start bringing good-paying jobs back to the United States of America.

“If United Technologies or any other company wants to keep outsourcing decent-paying American jobs, those companies must pay an outsourcing tax equal to the amount of money it expects to save by moving factories to Mexico or other low-wage countries. They must pay back all of the tax breaks and other corporate welfare they have received from the federal government. And they must not be allowed to reward their executives with stock options, bonuses or golden parachutes for outsourcing jobs to low wage countries.

“I will soon be introducing legislation to make sure that Donald Trump keeps his promise to prevent the outsourcing of American jobs. For the sake of American workers, this is a promise that cannot and must not be broken.”

Summary of the Outsourcing Prevention Act

In February, Carrier and UTEC announced that it would be closing two plants in Indianapolis and Huntington, Indiana shipping 2,100 jobs to Monterrey, Mexico, where workers are paid just $3 an hour. Both of these plants are owned by United Technologies. This legislation will provide a comprehensive solution to address this problem. United Technologies is not an outlier; it is representative of how so many multi-national corporations are taking advantage of our rigged economic system to pad their profits while hurting American workers. President-elect Trump made a promise during the campaign that he would prevent all of these jobs from being shipped overseas. The Outsourcing Prevention Act would make sure that Donald Trump keeps this promise by:

1. Preventing companies that outsource jobs from receiving federal contracts, tax breaks, grants or loans.

Last year, United Technologies received over $6 billion in federal contracts, making it the seventh largest recipient of federal contract funds. Over the past 15 years, this Fortune 500 company has used loopholes in the tax code to shelter more than two-thirds of its $38 billion in profits from federal taxation. It has also received over $50 million in corporate welfare from the Export-Import Bank. Under this legislation, companies would be barred from receiving future contracts, tax breaks, grants or loans from the federal government if they have announced plans to outsource more than 50 jobs overseas.

2. Clawing back federal benefits from companies that outsource jobs have received over the last decade.

This legislation would require all companies that outsource more than 50 jobs in a given year to pay back all federal tax breaks, grants and loans they have received from the federal government over the last decade.

3. Establishing an outsourcing tax on companies that move U.S. jobs offshore.

This legislation would impose a tax on all companies that outsource jobs. The tax would be equal to the amount of savings achieved by outsourcing jobs or 35 percent of its profits, whichever is higher. United Technologies estimated that it would save $65 million a year by moving its jobs in Indiana to Mexico. Under this legislation, the company would be required to pay a tax of no less than $65 million a year.

4. Prohibiting executives from profiting off of the outsourcing of U.S. jobs.

This legislation would prohibit companies that offshore jobs from enriching executives through golden parachutes, stock options, bonuses, or other forms of compensation by imposing stiff tax penalties on this compensation. In addition, companies that outsource jobs overseas would be prevented from buying back its own stock. In 2014, United Technologies gave its former CEO a golden parachute worth over $172 million. Last year, the company’s five highest paid executives made over $50 million. The firm also spent $12 billion to inflate its stock price instead of using that money to invest in new plants and workers.


One and two seem OK. Three could be a good idea but not good in practice. Four would gone around, over, and through like a mall cop on a segway.
 
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I see your umm and raise you an ohh.

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The deal would cover 800 Carrier workers from the Indianapolis furnace plant and an additional 300 research and headquarters positions that weren’t slated to go to Mexico, according to another person briefed on the deal.

The company still plans to move 600 jobs from the Carrier plant to Mexico. It also will proceed with plans to close a second plant in Huntington, Ind., that makes electronic controls, moving 700 other jobs to Mexico.


I did say angry Bernie.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Sanders further wrote this about Trumps alleged success that was actually a failure.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/01/...
 
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Quote:
The firm also spent $12 billion to inflate its stock price instead of using that money to invest in new plants and workers.

Sounds like a stock buyback, or "We can't figure out how to make our business better."

Quote:
1. Preventing companies that outsource jobs from receiving federal contracts, tax breaks, grants or loans.

2. Clawing back federal benefits from companies that outsource jobs have received over the last decade.

We could start by repealing the laws that give them advantages for outsourcing.

Quote:
3. Establishing an outsourcing tax on companies that move U.S. jobs offshore.

First, we should stop taxing jobs. Consider that an employer pays unemployment insurance, directly or indirectly, while firing the employee evades that cost and puts the burden of helping that American on government. Traditional employer-supplied health care makes employees more expensive in the US, and they typically don't do a good job providing it.

Quote:
4. Prohibiting executives from profiting off of the outsourcing of U.S. jobs.

I think the best thing for executive compensation would be to advantage receiving stock in trust that cannot be sold, instead of options that can be sold off immediately. That would give executives a long-term view and incent them to set up strong management teams that keep the company stable long past their retirement.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:

Yeah, he only managed half of his promise though, Carrier is still sending 700 jobs from another plant in Indiana to Mexico. In any case,the only reason Carrier is staying is due to $7 million in government handouts. There is no way that Trump can scale up what happened to Carrier to stop the 1000 other times that similar outsourcing will occur in the next 12 months.

In effect, this is no different than the US only managing to throw one person in jail for mortgage fraud after the entire banking industry almost unravelled in 2009. Even less effective really, since Carrier got paid to stay. If anything, this will just encourage more companies to threaten to move work to Mexico so that they can get similar government handouts.
 
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Donald wrote:
One and two seem OK. Three could be a good idea but not good in practice. Four would gone around, over, and through like a mall cop on a segway.

In the end, most laws of this sort are pointless. Companies will just find other legal means to maneuver around whatever rules the government creates. If a company can build (or buy) products from a foreign market much cheaper than they can build or buy products made in the US, they will do it, or they will be ran out of business by other companies than do and are able to sell the same product for less money.

The only real way to prevent labor intensive jobs from moving to foreign markets is to either drive down the value of the dollar or impose import tariffs. Either one of those actions has a lot of potential to cause very large economic problems.
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Drew1365 wrote:
This is ridiculous. He manages to negotiate to keep jobs here, and you're still unhappy.


All I am saying is that saving a few jobs doesn't mean anything, there is a bigger picture, and this might be a case of saving 1000 jobs to cost us 10000 jobs elsewhere (or cost the government many many millions in having to pay bribes to other companies who threaten to move to Mexico). The president shouldn't be wasting his time saving 1000 jobs per month in an economy that has created, on average, 200000 jobs every month for the last 7 years. Basically, I equate this to the very well known picture shown below.

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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-manufacturing-id...

While Trump was screwing around with Carrier, at least 3660 jobs were moved to foreign markets out of Indiana last month and another 960 jobs were eliminated because Indiana manufacturers couldn't compete with lower priced foreign goods. But hey, it was a yuge success for Trump right? He's got this.

Here is a nice quote from the article from a Trump voter:

"If in four years it's the same old crap that's going on we'll give another candidate a shot," said Michael Mobley, whose employer, Aurora Casket, eliminated 35 jobs in September and plans to cut another 35 jobs next year as it shifts work to Mexico from Aurora, Indiana.
 
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Is there any OTHER kind of "Bernie"?

Pity he stole the nomination from the Democrats...would have been a much better battle in retrospect.



Ferret
 
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Drew1365 wrote:


And in case the Obama folks forgot about this one:

https://news.grabien.com/story-flashback-obama-mocks-trump-p...

What an embarrassment for the world and the nation Obama has been...good riddance to bad rubbish.



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Drew1365 wrote:
sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
This is ridiculous. He manages to negotiate to keep jobs here, and you're still unhappy.


All I am saying is that saving a few jobs doesn't mean anything, there is a bigger picture, and this might be a case of saving 1000 jobs to cost us 10000 jobs elsewhere (or cost the government many many millions in having to pay bribes to other companies who threaten to move to Mexico).


Wahhh! If you can't save 1000 jobs then you'd better save NONE!

FOR FAIRNESS!!

Unbelievable.

I'm sure Trane, Lennox, Rheem, GE, Amana, Goodman, etc will be lining up for their government handouts now as well.
 
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sfox wrote:

Yeah, he only managed half of his promise though, Carrier is still sending 700 jobs from another plant in Indiana to Mexico. In any case,the only reason Carrier is staying is due to $7 million in government handouts. There is no way that Trump can scale up what happened to Carrier to stop the 1000 other times that similar outsourcing will occur in the next 12 months.


On the other hand, better than the 100% of the ones Obama managed to save (i.e. none)......


Ferret
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sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
This is ridiculous. He manages to negotiate to keep jobs here, and you're still unhappy.


All I am saying is that saving a few jobs doesn't mean anything, there is a bigger picture, and this might be a case of saving 1000 jobs to cost us 10000 jobs elsewhere (or cost the government many many millions in having to pay bribes to other companies who threaten to move to Mexico).


Wahhh! If you can't save 1000 jobs then you'd better save NONE!

FOR FAIRNESS!!

Unbelievable.

I'm sure Trane, Lennox, Rheem, GE, Amana, Goodman, etc will be lining up for their government handouts now as well.


Didn't sound like a "government" handout from the sound of it....they gave them a pre tax-break from what I heard.

Just a quick downpayment on Trump fixing the mess Obama has made the last 8 years. Basically exactly what I would expect from a populist--and frankly Bernie would be supportive if he wasn't so butt-hurt about it.



Ferret
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Drew1365 wrote:
sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
This is ridiculous. He manages to negotiate to keep jobs here, and you're still unhappy.

All I am saying is that saving a few jobs doesn't mean anything, there is a bigger picture, and this might be a case of saving 1000 jobs to cost us 10000 jobs elsewhere (or cost the government many many millions in having to pay bribes to other companies who threaten to move to Mexico).

Wahhh! If you can't save 1000 jobs then you'd better save NONE!

FOR FAIRNESS!!

Unbelievable.

____

N/A Posted Mon Nov 10, 2014
Drew1365 wrote:
Is healthcare more affordable? Nope. It's even more expensive. Was it "revenue-neutral" as Obama promised? HA! Did you get to keep your doctor? Your plan? Your network? Nope, nope, nope.

Wahhh! If you can't force doctors and insurance companies in a free market to keep seeing particular patients then you better repeal ACA!

FOR FAIRNESS!!

Unbelievable.
____

N/A Posted Tue Apr 1, 2014
Drew1365 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:

Quote:
President Obama promised that under his law, we could keep our plans, we could keep our doctors, and our premium costs would go down. None of that has happened.

I have my same plan and doctor, so what are they talking about?

Who are you? Harry Reid? It didn't affect you so everyone's a liar?

Wahhh! If you can't force doctors and insurance companies in a free market to keep seeing particular patients then you better repeal ACA!

FOR FAIRNESS!!

Unbelievable.
____

N/A Posted Mon Nov 9, 2009
Drew1365 wrote:
I take comfort in the fact that Obama won't sign this. Because he has said more times than I can count "If you like you'll doctor, under the plan I'll sign, you'll be able to keep your doctor." And since this bill will mean that many people won't be able to keep their doctors, Obama won't sign it . . . right? Right?

Wahhh! If you can't force doctors and insurance companies in a free market to keep seeing particular patients then you better repeal ACA!

FOR FAIRNESS!!

Unbelievable.
____

Busted: "FOR FAIRNESS!!" (And, BTW, I kept the same doctor and plan since before the beginning of ACA.)
____

(So now you see why people didn't response to your "neutral" appeal to talk about culture. As you sow, so shall you reap. Believable.)
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Ferretman wrote:
sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
This is ridiculous. He manages to negotiate to keep jobs here, and you're still unhappy.


All I am saying is that saving a few jobs doesn't mean anything, there is a bigger picture, and this might be a case of saving 1000 jobs to cost us 10000 jobs elsewhere (or cost the government many many millions in having to pay bribes to other companies who threaten to move to Mexico).


Wahhh! If you can't save 1000 jobs then you'd better save NONE!

FOR FAIRNESS!!

Unbelievable.

I'm sure Trane, Lennox, Rheem, GE, Amana, Goodman, etc will be lining up for their government handouts now as well.


Didn't sound like a "government" handout from the sound of it....they gave them a pre tax-break from what I heard.

Just a quick downpayment on Trump fixing the mess Obama has made the last 8 years. Basically exactly what I would expect from a populist--and frankly Bernie would be supportive if he wasn't so butt-hurt about it.



Ferret


That's the beautiful thing. Trump's begun the cleanup of the Obama suck fest and he ain't even sworn in yet.

Good. Lots to clean up.
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lol, ok now Trump says he didn't really mean that he would keep carrier from moving jobs to mexico, even though he repeated that line at least 20 times during the Campaign.

Here is a quote from Trump from yesterday, he is even more full of shit that Drew and BJ are:

I'll never forget about a week ago I was watching the nightly news—I won't say which one because I don't want to give them credit because I don't like them much. I'll be honest, I don't like them, not even a little bit. But they were doing a story on Carrier and I say, “Wow, that's something, I want to see that.” And they had a gentleman worker, great guy, handsome guy, he was on, and it was like he didn't even know they were leaving. He said something to the effect, “No, we're not leaving because Donald Trump promised us that we're not leaving.” And I never thought I made that promise; not with Carrier—I made it for everybody else. I didn't make it really for Carrier, and I said, “What's he saying?”

He was such a believer, he was such a great guy. He said, “I've been with Donald Trump from the beginning and he made the statement that Carrier's not going anywhere, they're not leaving.” And I'm saying to myself, man. And then they played my statement, and I said, “Carrier will never leave.” But that was a euphemism. I was talking about Carrier like all other companies from here on in because they made the decision a year and a half ago. But he believed that that was—and I could understand it; I actually said [it]—when they played that I said I did make it but I didn't mean it quite that way.
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Drew1365 wrote:
And let's get back to the OP and angry Bernie who was complaining about Carrier going to Mexico (he must hate Mexicans?) and then when Trump kept half the jobs here, it still wasn't good enough, and y'all blew a gasket.

How about being happy for those who kept their jobs? How about looking at what he accomplished here before he even took office? How about a little fucking credit where credit is due?

Or are you trying to keep your hatred pure?


Drewber: Waahhhh! I hate Hillary she is a liar!
Trump: Lies, lies, more lies, what does truth really mean anyway?
Drewber: Well that is ok for Trump, he is making america great for white men again!
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Drewber: Waaaahhh! Obama said everyone could keep their doctor and their health plan!
Liberals: Well, some people got to keep their same health insurance
Drewber: Yeah but Obama said everyone! Everyone! That is what he said so he is a liar!!11!1!!
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sfox wrote:
lol, ok now Trump says he didn't really mean that he would keep carrier from moving jobs to mexico, even though he repeated that line at least 20 times during the Campaign.

Here is a quote from Trump from yesterday, he is even more full of shit that Drew and BJ are:

I'll never forget about a week ago I was watching the nightly news—I won't say which one because I don't want to give them credit because I don't like them much. I'll be honest, I don't like them, not even a little bit. But they were doing a story on Carrier and I say, “Wow, that's something, I want to see that.” And they had a gentleman worker, great guy, handsome guy, he was on, and it was like he didn't even know they were leaving. He said something to the effect, “No, we're not leaving because Donald Trump promised us that we're not leaving.” And I never thought I made that promise; not with Carrier—I made it for everybody else. I didn't make it really for Carrier, and I said, “What's he saying?”

He was such a believer, he was such a great guy. He said, “I've been with Donald Trump from the beginning and he made the statement that Carrier's not going anywhere, they're not leaving.” And I'm saying to myself, man. And then they played my statement, and I said, “Carrier will never leave.” But that was a euphemism. I was talking about Carrier like all other companies from here on in because they made the decision a year and a half ago. But he believed that that was—and I could understand it; I actually said [it]—when they played that I said I did make it but I didn't mean it quite that way.


The bolded (a) is proof from Trump's own mouth that he's full of shit and (b) shows he doesn't know what the word "euphemism" means.
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Drew1365 wrote:
And let's get back to the OP and angry Bernie who was complaining about Carrier going to Mexico (he must hate Mexicans?) and then when Trump kept half the jobs here, it still wasn't good enough, and y'all blew a gasket.

How about being happy for those who kept their jobs? How about looking at what he accomplished here before he even took office? How about a little fucking credit where credit is due?

Or are you trying to keep your hatred pure?



hey remember when Obama bailed out GM and saved approximately 1.2 million jobs for a total net cost to the taxpayer of $12 billion, for a per-job cost of approximately $1,000 per job saved, and Drew called it a "debacle"

here Trump has saved 850 jobs at a cost to the taxpayer of $7 million, for a per-job cost of $8,235, and he's complaining that liberals are saying "not good enough" and whining that Trump isn't getting the credit he's due

i wonder what the difference is, to make oh-so-principled Drew change his position on such matters

i reeeeeallly reeeeeallly wonder
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Drew1365 wrote:
Dear assholes:

There's a big difference between not receiving as much as was promised, and receiving the EXACT OPPOSITE of what was promised.

If I say "I will get you a dozen eggs!" and I give you a half-dozen, that's not exactly what was promised, but it's still a net positive.

If I say "I will get you a dozen eggs!" and instead I break all the eggs, mash the shells into pulp, and kill all the laying hens, . . . yeah, I'm gonna complain about that.

But keep being whiny little racist gits who need your daily dose of hate-fuel.

maybe you are new to rsp but we used to treat each other respectfully here and not start out our comments with "dear assholes"
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single sentences wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Dear assholes:

There's a big difference between not receiving as much as was promised, and receiving the EXACT OPPOSITE of what was promised.

If I say "I will get you a dozen eggs!" and I give you a half-dozen, that's not exactly what was promised, but it's still a net positive.

If I say "I will get you a dozen eggs!" and instead I break all the eggs, mash the shells into pulp, and kill all the laying hens, . . . yeah, I'm gonna complain about that.

But keep being whiny little racist gits who need your daily dose of hate-fuel.

maybe you are new to rsp but we used to treat each other respectfully here and not start out our comments with "dear assholes"


That can't be true.
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sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
This is ridiculous. He manages to negotiate to keep jobs here, and you're still unhappy.


All I am saying is that saving a few jobs doesn't mean anything, there is a bigger picture, and this might be a case of saving 1000 jobs to cost us 10000 jobs elsewhere (or cost the government many many millions in having to pay bribes to other companies who threaten to move to Mexico). The president shouldn't be wasting his time saving 1000 jobs per month in an economy that has created, on average, 200000 jobs every month for the last 7 years. Basically, I equate this to the very well known picture shown below.



Of course this one small "victory" is symbolic. It has to be repeated over and over again or it will be meaningless.

Since you dredge up the infamous picture, that "mission" actually was accomplished. The trouble started when a new mission was substituted. The Iraqi regime was defeated, however, creating a stable, democratic, unitary Iraq was quite another matter. The consequences are well known.
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Dispaminite wrote:
single sentences wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Dear assholes:

There's a big difference between not receiving as much as was promised, and receiving the EXACT OPPOSITE of what was promised.

If I say "I will get you a dozen eggs!" and I give you a half-dozen, that's not exactly what was promised, but it's still a net positive.

If I say "I will get you a dozen eggs!" and instead I break all the eggs, mash the shells into pulp, and kill all the laying hens, . . . yeah, I'm gonna complain about that.

But keep being whiny little racist gits who need your daily dose of hate-fuel.

maybe you are new to rsp but we used to treat each other respectfully here and not start out our comments with "dear assholes"


That can't be true.


It was a euphemism.
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