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Subject: Becoming stealthy? rss

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Kristo Vaher
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This rulebook is a mess

If you are visible, can you become stealthy by moving to medium tile for 2 actions?

Because rulebook contradicts itself.

On page 7 it says stealthy on medium works only to keep being stealthy (remaining stealthy). But on page 4 it says you can 'become stealthy' by moving to medium for 2 actions.

Which implies that you can both remain and become stealthy on medium tiles for 2 actions.
 
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Martin Gallo
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Slashdoctor wrote:
This rulebook is a mess
The English version is not always the clearest.

Slashdoctor wrote:
If you are visible, can you become stealthy by moving to medium tile for 2 actions?
I am going with "No" because...

Slashdoctor wrote:
Because rulebook contradicts itself.
Not quite.

Slashdoctor wrote:
On page 7 it says stealthy on medium works only to keep being stealthy (remaining stealthy). But on page 4 it says you can 'become stealthy' by moving to medium for 2 actions.
Page 4 seems to be "more correct" as the text on page 7 reiterates the page 4 rule AND emphasizes that the rest of the Move rules are in play. Nowhere is it stated that Stealthy can be regained by moving Stealthy in an enemy occupied tile for 2 AP, only maintained.

Slashdoctor wrote:
Which implies that you can both remain and become stealthy on medium tiles for 2 actions.
So there is no such implication that I can find. You can lose it many ways and gain it by moving into a non-enemy occupied small tile.

I do understand how easy it is to be confused. It took me a few passes to get it. At least I think I got it!
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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It doesn't matter whether the commando was visible or stealthy on the tile they just moved out from. The only important thing is the size of the destination tile and the movement action they use to move there.

The text on page 7 focuses on the 2-action move on top of the 1-action move. Normally you would become visible if you moved onto a medium tile. But you have the option to use the 2-action move, in this case the commando will be stealthy after the movement is done. The word 'remain' is not the best choice there, but it does not matter.

I agree that the rules are not the easiest to grasp at first. But I think the reason is more that the game's system and approach on the genre is unique and not necessarily what we expect at first.
Once you get the core aspect of it the rules are quite straightforward imo.
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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martimer wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
Which implies that you can both remain and become stealthy on medium tiles for 2 actions.
So there is no such implication that I can find. You can lose it many ways and gain it by moving into a non-enemy occupied small tile.
Nope. Page 4 clearly says that the way you become (and/or remain) stealthy is moving to a tile that allows this.

The main rule here is: the size of the destination tile and the type of movement together determine whether the commando is stealthy or visible at the and of that movement (regardless of them being stealthy or visible before the movement).
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Martin Gallo
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tmgergo wrote:
martimer wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
Which implies that you can both remain and become stealthy on medium tiles for 2 actions.
So there is no such implication that I can find. You can lose it many ways and gain it by moving into a non-enemy occupied small tile.
Nope. Page 4 clearly says that the way you become (and/or remain) stealthy is moving to a tile that allows this.

The main rule here is: the size of the destination tile and the type of movement determines whether the commando is stealthy or visible at the and of that movement (regardless of them being stealthy or visible before the movement).
Whoops, I forgot to add the "or stealth move into a medium non-enemy occupied tile"blush

Sorry about that and thanks for the reminder.
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Phil McDonald
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Being stealthy is the single most important aspect of this game.

Being visible....
1. Means you can be shot at by germans on their turn if they have line of sight and range.
2. Means Germans will move towards you if you are the closest visible commando in their move phase.
3. Means that the alarm can't be turned off.
4. Means that if you try to perform any kind of move, all germans on your origin and destination tiles will get a reaction shot on you before you leave your origin tile.

Being stealthy....
1. Means you can perform stealth attacks on your tile which automatically succeed.
2. Means you cannot be targetted by German fire.
3. Means you perform a stealth check when germans enter your tile or you enter theirs to see if you remain srealthy.
4. Means you don't take reaction fire, even if you fail a stealth check when moving. Reaction fire is only triggered on your origin tile, so as long as you were stealthy at the start of your move you are fine because you only become visible in the tile you are moving to.
5. Means you can perform actions that don't make you visible in an objective tile, such as placing TNT, safely and without attracting attention from Germans on the tile.

Small tiles. You are automatically stealthy when arriving on a small tile if there are no germans there. If there ARE germans there you have to take a stealth check if you start as stealthy. If you start as visible you cannot become stealthy if there is a german on your destination tile. If you began your move as visible, any germans on your origin AND destination tiles will get a reaction shot on you before you leave your origin tile. If you are wearing a german uniform you are stealthy but still have to perform a stealth check if there are germans on your destination tile when arriving.

Medium tiles. Same caveats as small tile except that you can move in as visible for 1AP or stealthy for 2AP. If you are stealthy before you move you won't take any reaction fire when moving in for 1AP though because stealth is checked in your ORIGIN tile for reaction fire.
Note that even if you spend 2AP to move stealthily into a medium tile you still may fail a stealth check if there are Germans there. So why do it? Well, maybe you are close to your wound limit (or have low wound capability) and don't want to take damage in the germans firing phase, or maybe it is the objective tile. A Stealth check gives you SOME chance of being unseen and stealthy, especially if there is only one German there. The more germans, the luckier you need to be.

EDIT Please note that moving stealthily into a medium tile containing germans (even if you begin stealthy) is under question, see below. Waiting for designer clarification.

Large tiles. You can only be stealthy on large tiles by wearing a german uniform or by character traits. Stealth tests still apply if occupied by germans.
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Burkhard Hannig
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philmcd wrote:

Note that even if you spend 2AP to move stealthily into a medium tile you still may fail a stealth check if there are Germans there.


The rules page 4 under Stealthy says:
A commando entering a medium tile with NO ENEMY has 2 options....

So there is no moving stealthy option on a tile with Germans on it, you are always visible.

Or I am missing something?
 
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Phil McDonald
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groescha wrote:
philmcd wrote:

Note that even if you spend 2AP to move stealthily into a medium tile you still may fail a stealth check if there are Germans there.


The rules page 4 under Stealthy says:
A commando entering a medium tile with NO ENEMY has 2 options....

So there is no moving stealthy option on a tile with Germans on it, you are always visible.

Or I am missing something?


Hmmm, I meant to say providing you begin your move as stealthy (see first bullet point on page 5). But the rule you mention on page 4 implies NOT. Having the rules for this move split between pages 4, 5 and 7 is most unhelpful.

I would like to see clarification from the designer on this point.
 
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Kristo Vaher
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The rules ARE confusing.

Can someone answer this (without long paragraphs):

If I am VISIBLE and I move onto MEDIUM SIZED TILE with TWO ACTIONS, do I become STEALTHY?

The rules perfectly cover the fact that you can remain stealthy by moving to a medium sized tile with 2 actions. But can you BECOME stealthy?

Because page 4 implies that you can.
 
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Phil McDonald
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Slashdoctor wrote:
The rules ARE confusing.

Can someone answer this (without long paragraphs):

If I am VISIBLE and I move onto MEDIUM SIZED TILE with TWO ACTIONS, do I become STEALTHY?

The rules perfectly cover the fact that you can remain stealthy by moving to a medium sized tile with 2 actions. But can you BECOME stealthy?

Because page 4 implies that you can.


Even that is unclear, because if you look at the VISIBLE section on page 4, it says you can use a 2AP move to REMAIN stealthy. Not to mention the fact that this is located within a section titled VISIBLE.

I'm not at all sure that is what the designer intends, but it may be.

Though if there are germans on the medium tile, the answer to your question is definitely NO. See the first bullet point on page 5.

There are translation issues with the rules and also ambiguity.
 
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Burkhard Hannig
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Slashdoctor wrote:
The rules ARE confusing.

Can someone answer this (without long paragraphs):

If I am VISIBLE and I move onto MEDIUM SIZED TILE with TWO ACTIONS, do I become STEALTHY?

The rules perfectly cover the fact that you can remain stealthy by moving to a medium sized tile with 2 actions. But can you BECOME stealthy?

Because page 4 implies that you can.


When there is no enemy, we would play: Yes
 
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Kristo Vaher
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Apologies for the picture quality, but all the stuff is here:



It's not only translation problem though, it is a rulebook problem in general, because under Stealthy section it says that to become stealthy, commando must move to a tile that allows hiding, followed by a ':' and then being given THREE options. Out of which one is a small tile, then a large tile (by saying NOT) and then medium tile.
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Phil McDonald
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That doesn't clear it up for me.

It is questionable as to whether REMAIN stealthy means you have to be stealthy already, or meaning enter the tile stealthily.

If the designer had English as his first language it would mean the former, but even then it should be written less ambiguously.

But the designer is a French speaker and elsewhere in the rules has used ACTIONS and ACTION POINTS interchangeably, leading to much confusion.

The rules you highlight are the CAUSE of the confusion, not the solution.
 
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Kristo Vaher
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philmcd wrote:
That doesn't clear it up for me.

It is questionable as to whether REMAIN stealthy means you have to be stealthy already, or meaning enter the tile stealthily.

If the designer had English as his first language it would mean the former, but even then it should be written less ambiguously.

But the designer is a French speaker and elsewhere in the rules has used ACTIONS and ACTION POINTS interchangeably, leading to much confusion.

The rules you highlight are the CAUSE of the confusion, not the solution.


Oh apologies, I did not mean it as a solution but exactly the cause. So we don't have to flip the rulebook to discuss this issue.

Anyways, I believe that the THEMATIC intent is that you can become stealthy on medium tile for 2 actions (if there are no enemies) and for 1 action for the same reason on small tile.
 
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Phil McDonald
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Slashdoctor wrote:
philmcd wrote:
That doesn't clear it up for me.

It is questionable as to whether REMAIN stealthy means you have to be stealthy already, or meaning enter the tile stealthily.

If the designer had English as his first language it would mean the former, but even then it should be written less ambiguously.

But the designer is a French speaker and elsewhere in the rules has used ACTIONS and ACTION POINTS interchangeably, leading to much confusion.

The rules you highlight are the CAUSE of the confusion, not the solution.


Oh apologies, I did not mean it as a solution but exactly the cause. So we don't have to flip the rulebook to discuss this issue.

Anyways, I believe that the THEMATIC intent is that you can become stealthy on medium tile for 2 actions (if there are no enemies) and for 1 action for the same reason on small tile.


I agree with your interpretation. I too have been trying to grasp the rules thematically when ambiguities crop up.

I want emphasize I think this is an excellent game though, especially as it is a first game for the designer. And even though the rules leave much to be desired, we should cut him a little slack on that basis.

It's just about getting the rules nailed down with a fully comprehensive FAQ. There is one on the game website, but it only covers a few of the issues.
 
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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The way I see it (which doesn't mean it's correct), there is a stealthy "I think" before every sentence below:

The main rule here is
Quote:
a commando must move onto a tile

Whether the commando was stealthy or visible before the movement doesn't matter.
The two things that matter are the size of the destination tile and the type of movement they use to get there. If they used the right combination (see the rules above) they are stealthy. Regardless of them being stealthy or visible on the tile they just left before the movement.
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Phil McDonald
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tmgergo wrote:
The way I see it (which doesn't mean it's correct), there is a stealthy "I think" before every sentence below:

The main rule here is
Quote:
a commando must move onto a tile

Whether the commando was stealthy or visible before the movement doesn't matter.
The two things that matter are the size of the destination tile and the type of movement they use to get there. If they used the right combination (see the rules above) they are stealthy. Regardless of them being stealthy or visible on the tile they just left before the movement.


Completely disagree. Your statement isn't supported by the rules AS WRITTEN. Some of them even conflict (see above).

And then it is CRITICAL whether you begin as visible or stealthy for deciding whether reaction fire is triggered, or whether you can even ATTEMPT a stealthy move (see the first bullet point on page 5).
 
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tmgergo wrote:
The way I see it (which doesn't mean it's correct), there is a stealthy "I think" before every sentence below:

The main rule here is
Quote:
a commando must move onto a tile

Whether the commando was stealthy or visible before the movement doesn't matter.
The two things that matter are the size of the destination tile and the type of movement they use to get there. If they used the right combination (see the rules above) they are stealthy. Regardless of them being stealthy or visible on the tile they just left before the movement.


I am with you here, I think it is the right way to play it.

But there is no way to become/remain stealthy on a medium tile with an enemy on it.
Or is it an old rule version, which was not deleted trough the design development?
Because this "no enemy" wording is only on page 4 with medium tiles and is not repeated on page 7 or under small tiles.

I think we have to wait until the designer pops up whistle
 
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Phil McDonald
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groescha wrote:
tmgergo wrote:
The way I see it (which doesn't mean it's correct), there is a stealthy "I think" before every sentence below:

The main rule here is
Quote:
a commando must move onto a tile

Whether the commando was stealthy or visible before the movement doesn't matter.
The two things that matter are the size of the destination tile and the type of movement they use to get there. If they used the right combination (see the rules above) they are stealthy. Regardless of them being stealthy or visible on the tile they just left before the movement.


I am with you here, I think it is the right way to play it.

But there is no way to become/remain stealthy on a medium tile with an enemy on it.
Or is it an old rule version, which was not deleted trough the design development?
Because this "no enemy" wording is only on page 4 with medium tiles and is not repeated on page 7 or under small tiles.

I think we have to wait until the designer pops up whistle


Thematically speaking I don't get the fact that you are saying that you can attempt to enter a small tile stealthily if there are Germans on it provided you begin as stealthy, but you cannot do exactly the same thing on a medium tile despite paying 2AP for the privelege. There could be 3 germans on a small tile and only 1 on a medium tile. Thematically it just seems arbitrary.

If you are wearing a german uniform you can attempt to enter a medium tlle stealthily by paying 1 AP after all.

You may be right (hopefully the designer will clarify), but thematically it sucks.
 
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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philmcd wrote:
Completely disagree. Your statement isn't supported by the rules AS WRITTEN. Some of them even conflict (see above).
Some of the rules don't really support other rules either

philmcd wrote:
And then it is CRITICAL whether you begin as visible or stealthy for deciding whether reaction fire is triggered
Agreed, reaction fire is important. But I see it as a different issue. You leave the tile, reaction fire is triggered or not. Once that's done you enter the new tile and determine whether you are stealthy on that new tile or not.
Thematically: an enemy could spot you in front of a house and shoot at you, but if you dodge the bullets and enter the house you can hide there. The enemy can follow you (in their phase) but they will need to find you in the house.

philmcd wrote:
or whether you can even ATTEMPT a stealthy move (see the first bullet point on page 5).
I don't look at movement here as a process, I look at it as two separate steps:
Step 1: you live a tile, whatever needs to happen happens (e.g. reaction fire)
Step 2: you enter the new tile, determine whether based on the tile and action used to get there you are stealthy or not, and then again whatever needs to happen happens (e.g. stealth check)
 
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Phil McDonald
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tmgergo wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Completely disagree. Your statement isn't supported by the rules AS WRITTEN. Some of them even conflict (see above).
Some of the rules don't really support other rules either

philmcd wrote:
And then it is CRITICAL whether you begin as visible or stealthy for deciding whether reaction fire is triggered
Agreed, reaction fire is important. But I see it as a different issue. You leave the tile, reaction fire is triggered or not. Once that's done you enter the new tile and determine whether you are stealthy on that new tile or not.
Thematically: an enemy could spot you in front of a house and shoot at you, but if you dodge the bullets and enter the house you can hide there. The enemy can follow you (in their phase) but they will need to find you in the house.

philmcd wrote:
or whether you can even ATTEMPT a stealthy move (see the first bullet point on page 5).
I don't look at movement here as a process, I look at it as two separate steps:
Step 1: you live a tile, whatever needs to happen happens (e.g. reaction fire)
Step 2: you enter the new tile, determine whether based on the tile and action used to get there you are stealthy or not, and then again whatever needs to happen happens (e.g. stealth check)


Reaction fire is triggered BEFORE you leave a tile.

You cannot ATTEMPT to move stealthily into another tile if you begin as visible and there are germans in your destination tile. See first bullet point on page 5.
 
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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philmcd wrote:
Reaction fire is triggered BEFORE you leave a tile.
Yes. To me that's part of leaving a tile and independent from entering the new tile.

Quote:
You cannot ATTEMPT to move stealthily into another tile if you begin as visible and there are germans in your destination tile. See first bullet point on page 5.
The German presence part is OK (if this is really the case, we do need clarification on this one). To me the 'begin visible' part seems irrelevant here. Whether I can hide on a tile or not should be independent from the stealth state I was in on the previous tile.
 
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tmgergo wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Reaction fire is triggered BEFORE you leave a tile.
Yes. To me that's part of leaving a tile and independent from entering the new tile.

Quote:
You cannot ATTEMPT to move stealthily into another tile if you begin as visible and there are germans in your destination tile. See first bullet point on page 5.
The German presence part is OK (if this is really the case, we do need clarification on this one). To me the 'begin visible' part seems irrelevant here. Whether I can hide on a tile or not should be independent from the stealth state I was in on the previous tile.


You mean should not be dependent?
 
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Phil McDonald
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tmgergo wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Reaction fire is triggered BEFORE you leave a tile.
Yes. To me that's part of leaving a tile and independent from entering the new tile.

Quote:
You cannot ATTEMPT to move stealthily into another tile if you begin as visible and there are germans in your destination tile. See first bullet point on page 5.
The German presence part is OK (if this is really the case, we do need clarification on this one). To me the 'begin visible' part seems irrelevant here. Whether I can hide on a tile or not should be independent from the stealth state I was in on the previous tile.


The first bullet point on page 5 is something that I feel is clear and not requiring clarification because it hasn't been written ambiguously.

Your character token will tell you if you're visible or stealthy.

You don't become stealthy on your origin tile. If you begin as visible, you would like to become stealthy once you've entered your destination tile as per the rules, but the rule at the top of page 5 tells you you can't if there are germans there. What's to clarify?

Thematically speaking.. Germans 'Ooooh look, here comes a commando'
 
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Kristo Vaher
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This is the way I interpret it:

• A VISIBLE/STEALTHY commando on ANY TILE of ANY SIZE can use 1 ACTION to move to EMPTY SMALL TILE or use 2 ACTIONS to move to EMPTY MEDIUM TILE to BECOME/REMAIN STEALTHY. A VISIBLE commando CANNOT BECOME STEALTHY if moving to a DESTINATION tile WITH ENEMIES.
• A STEALTHY commando becomes immediately VISIBLE if moving to LARGE tile or using just 1 ACTION to move to a MEDIUM TILE or failing a STEALTH CHECK based on enemies on the DESTINATION TILE. Failing a STEALTH CHECK does not submit to REACTION FIRE.
• A VISIBLE commando moving away from ANY tile of ANY size will submit to REACTION FIRE from SOURCE tile, if it has enemies as well as DESTINATION tile, if that has enemies.

I totally agree that there is NO WAY to become stealthy, if you are visible and barge into a room full of Germans And this section is in complete bold in the rulebook after all.
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