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Subject: "Collectibility" of the first edition? rss

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Chris Thickitt
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I've got a baby on the way and with the 1.5 core game going for half price in the current kickstarter, I'm considering selling my current game to someone that would rather not wait until the summer for the 1.5 version (For various reasons, mine is simply sitting on a shelf and I wouldn't realistically be able to play it for the first time until the summer anyway).

However, the one aspect that is giving me pause is how coveted the first edition may end up being. I'm a bit of a collector and I'd hate to let go of what might ultimately become a more valuable edition (with the upgrades) just for a bit of extra money now.

So, what do you all think? Would it be dumb to get rid of the 1.3 version now? At this point I believe the only difference between 1.3 and 1.5 (that can't be corrected without the upgrade) is the box since the kickstarter image has "1.5" printed on the side.
 
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Nick Meenachan
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I really can't imagine the first edition being a collector's item.

1.5 will be superior in every way, with more stuff, and it's being released relatively closely to the release of the first edition.
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John Middleton
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If you are planning selling now is the time to do it.

Once 1.5 releases, that will be the only version people want.
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J P
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TheKillShirt wrote:
I really can't imagine the first edition being a collector's item.

1.5 will be superior in every way, with more stuff, and it's being released relatively closely to the release of the first edition.


That's not really how Collector's Items work. Just look at comics and novels. They get reprinted all the time, often with better production values (better printing, color, typos corrected, etc.), but the 1st printing of a first edition can be worth a lot of money. It's true even with PC games. If you just want to play the original Fallout, you can get it off GOG or Steam for a couple of bucks, but a sealed copy in its original "big box" packaging can go for hundreds on eBay.
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Chris Thickitt
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TheKillShirt wrote:
1.5 will be superior in every way, with more stuff, and it's being released relatively closely to the release of the first edition.


True, but I've seen "inferior" versions of other games go for more simply because of the "first edition" factor. Especially since there is an upgrade pack available.

Perhaps I'm just being paranoid...
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Nick Meenachan
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DancingFool wrote:
TheKillShirt wrote:
I really can't imagine the first edition being a collector's item.

1.5 will be superior in every way, with more stuff, and it's being released relatively closely to the release of the first edition.


That's not really how Collector's Items work. Just look at comics and novels. They get reprinted all the time, often with better production values (better printing, color, typos corrected, etc.), but the 1st printing of a first edition can be worth a lot of money. It's true even with PC games. If you just want to play the original Fallout, you can get it off GOG or Steam for a couple of bucks, but a sealed copy in its original "big box" packaging can go for hundreds on eBay.


But it IS how it works with board games. An OOP game that's in demand can fetch many times its value, but when a new edition is released the price plummets. Just look at Mission: Red Planet. There's a copy of the first edition at $75 on eBay, but right next to it is a copy for $59...and that's right next to a new 2nd edition copy at the same price.

I really think the only reason first edition copies are still going for beaucoup bucks now is because of it still being OOP. Once 1.5 delivers and he's selling it in the store, no one will care about hunting down a first edition.

If it were me, I'd sell it now.

EDIT: Also, OP: congrats on the baby.
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Brandon Held
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Scarcity and demand are two large components of collectivity.

This game won't be scarce for quite some time with a perspective 10 million dollar Kickstarter on the way. I'm not sure why there'd be much demand for the original edition of the game if version 1.5 makes improvements on gameplay.

I've seen people pay large amounts of money for games that are hard to find that they want to get to the table to play-I'm not sure there's a market for games that people want to keep on the shelf because there aren't very many of them.

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Henry Akeley
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1.3 and 1.5 don't sound that vastly different TBH. Its very easy to just integrate the 1.5 changes into your existing 1.3 copy.

Remember; the philosophy and scouts of death are advanced rules that do not come with the 1.5 upgrade kit by default.
 
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John Middleton
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There are going to be gamers who swear the old 1.3 rules and experience were better than the new 1.5 rules.


That is all totally subjective, but you get lots of people saying it, then new buyers will possibly look into getting the older edition.



This is very true in boardgames. Look at Descent vs Descent second ed.

Or the original Space Hulk vs 4th edition. 4th is obviously much nicer components with more fully tested rules, but the original is different enough or has rough edges some gamers love.

Nostalgia could be a factor too. Even the sort of desire for old thing that some have without having any past nostalgic influence.
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J P
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TheKillShirt wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
TheKillShirt wrote:
I really can't imagine the first edition being a collector's item.

1.5 will be superior in every way, with more stuff, and it's being released relatively closely to the release of the first edition.


That's not really how Collector's Items work. Just look at comics and novels. They get reprinted all the time, often with better production values (better printing, color, typos corrected, etc.), but the 1st printing of a first edition can be worth a lot of money. It's true even with PC games. If you just want to play the original Fallout, you can get it off GOG or Steam for a couple of bucks, but a sealed copy in its original "big box" packaging can go for hundreds on eBay.


But it IS how it works with board games. An OOP game that's in demand can fetch many times its value, but when a new edition is released the price plummets. Just look at Mission: Red Planet. There's a copy of the first edition at $75 on eBay, but right next to it is a copy for $59...and that's right next to a new 2nd edition copy at the same price.

I really think the only reason first edition copies are still going for beaucoup bucks now is because of it still being OOP. Once 1.5 delivers and he's selling it in the store, no one will care about hunting down a first edition.

If it were me, I'd sell it now.

EDIT: Also, OP: congrats on the baby.



You're thinking short term. No one thought old video and PC games would be worth anything. Fast forward 20 years and I sold my original mint condition Fallout for almost $800. A game that, like I said, is readily available if you simply want to play it. No thought old comic books would be valuable either and now a first appearance of Spider-Man can get you $100,000. The truth is no one knows what may or may not be collectible 20, 30, 40 years from now.
 
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John Middleton
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There is also the fact that you can buy 1.3 now, and play it, while having the 1.5 upgrade stuff coming from the kickstarter.

So you could have both versions an the best of both worlds.
 
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Daniel Drickman
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DegenerateElite wrote:
There are going to be gamers who swear the old 1.3 rules and experience were better than the new 1.5 rules.


That is all totally subjective, but you get lots of people saying it, then new buyers will possibly look into getting the older edition.



This is very true in boardgames. Look at Descent vs Descent second ed.

Or the original Space Hulk vs 4th edition. 4th is obviously much nicer components with more fully tested rules, but the original is different enough or has rough edges some gamers love.

Nostalgia could be a factor too. Even the sort of desire for old thing that some have without having any past nostalgic influence.


Yes, but not enough to keep the value anywhere close to where it is. Those who love it will keep it and many more will sell theirs off after upgrading to the new edition and the price will plummet. This is not comics.
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sam newman

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Its hard to say, if KD becomes a much loved franchise that branches out into more than just board games then i can see the thing that started it all becoming very collectable, but if it stays a niche board game then its difficult to predict.

In the immediate future however i dont see it being as desirable as a new version of KDM.
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J P
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DanKD wrote:
This is not comics.


You honestly don't know that. No one does.
 
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Daniel Drickman
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DancingFool wrote:
DanKD wrote:
This is not comics.


You honestly don't know that. No one does.


The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Time and time again games are OOP and hard to get. I have yet to see a case where a newer edition being released causes the value of the older edition to go up. Most often the value plummets. Can you provide a counter example where a new edition being releases actually increased the value of the previous edition?

The only possible way I could see that happening is if the new edition is bombed some how or never ships / releases. Now, any exclusive figures not being re release may hold their value
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J P
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DanKD wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
DanKD wrote:
This is not comics.


You honestly don't know that. No one does.


The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Time and time again games are OOP and hard to get. I have yet to see a case where a newer edition being released causes the value of the older edition to go up. Most often the value plummets. Can you provide a counter example where a new edition being releases actually increased the value of the previous edition?

The only possible way I could see that happening is if the new edition is bombed some how or never ships / releases. Now, any exclusive figures not being re release may hold their value


No, but that's not the case I was making. I was talking about first editions and first printings (two different things). Modern board gaming is still in its infancy so it's hard to use board gaming itself as evidence. That's why I pointed to other forms of entertainment that have been around much longer as evidence. First editions of novels, comics, records, toys, video games, etc. have ALL been shown to have examples where they've become desirable collectibles and increased in value over time. Even when they are regularly reprinted and the reprints can be had for cheap. Which games may or may not increase in collectibility is anyone's guess though. I do believe it will happen, though, in about 20 years.
 
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Daniel Drickman
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DancingFool wrote:
DanKD wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
DanKD wrote:
This is not comics.


You honestly don't know that. No one does.


The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Time and time again games are OOP and hard to get. I have yet to see a case where a newer edition being released causes the value of the older edition to go up. Most often the value plummets. Can you provide a counter example where a new edition being releases actually increased the value of the previous edition?

The only possible way I could see that happening is if the new edition is bombed some how or never ships / releases. Now, any exclusive figures not being re release may hold their value


No, but that's not the case I was making. I was talking about first editions and first printings (two different things). Modern board gaming is still in its infancy so it's hard to use board gaming itself as evidence. That's why I pointed to other forms of entertainment that have been around much longer as evidence. First editions of novels, comics, records, toys, video games, etc. have ALL been shown to have examples where they've become desirable collectibles and increased in value over time. Even when they are regularly reprinted and the reprints can be had for cheap. Which games may or may not increase in collectibility is anyone's guess though. I do believe it will happen, though, in about 20 years.


Well sure and a role of Charmin toilet paper in it's original packaging could be worth thousands too. Anything can happen of course, but it's highly unlikely based upon all objective evidence.
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Henry Akeley
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Comparing 1.3 and 1.5 KD to Descent 1st ed to Descent 2nd ed is a total false equivalency. KD 1.3 and 1.5 are near identical with some rules nuances and card modifications and GSK at the end rather than The Watcher.

Descent 1st vs Descent 2nd is 2 totally different game systems. Apples and oranges here people. KD 1.5 is basically 1.3 with an extra boss at the end, some tweaked disorders/fighting arts/innovations/principles and a little bit of new gear. The end.
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J P
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DanKD wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
DanKD wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
DanKD wrote:
This is not comics.


You honestly don't know that. No one does.


The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Time and time again games are OOP and hard to get. I have yet to see a case where a newer edition being released causes the value of the older edition to go up. Most often the value plummets. Can you provide a counter example where a new edition being releases actually increased the value of the previous edition?

The only possible way I could see that happening is if the new edition is bombed some how or never ships / releases. Now, any exclusive figures not being re release may hold their value


No, but that's not the case I was making. I was talking about first editions and first printings (two different things). Modern board gaming is still in its infancy so it's hard to use board gaming itself as evidence. That's why I pointed to other forms of entertainment that have been around much longer as evidence. First editions of novels, comics, records, toys, video games, etc. have ALL been shown to have examples where they've become desirable collectibles and increased in value over time. Even when they are regularly reprinted and the reprints can be had for cheap. Which games may or may not increase in collectibility is anyone's guess though. I do believe it will happen, though, in about 20 years.


Well sure and a role of Charmin toilet paper in it's original packaging could be worth thousands too. Anything can happen of course, but it's highly unlikely based upon all objective evidence.


Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because we'll just go in circles now, as I think the objective evidence says I'm right. A first printing of The Hobbit, a book you can get a new copy of for a couple bucks, sells for $50,000. 7 in. Punk rock records from the seventies, which have songs you can get for a dollar on iTunes or free from YouTube, sell for thousands. Amazing Spider-Man #1 has been reprinted countless times with better paper and ink, but the first printing sells for gobs of money. I've seen Fallout 1 still in shrink wrap sell for $1000. As board gaming becomes bigger and if it becomes a permanent part of the culture it is inevitable that some will become serious collectibles.


EDIT: I get the sense that people are misunderstanding what I'm saying in that terms like "1st" or "2nd Edition" mean very different things in board game terms and in collectibles terms.
 
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Sam Wineinger
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I don't really think it will be worth more, but how could anyone really know? What I do know, is you seem pretty adamant that "it could", even though most folks are saying they don't think so. SO, I would say go with your gut.
 
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John Middleton
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DanKD wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
There are going to be gamers who swear the old 1.3 rules and experience were better than the new 1.5 rules.


That is all totally subjective, but you get lots of people saying it, then new buyers will possibly look into getting the older edition.



This is very true in boardgames. Look at Descent vs Descent second ed.

Or the original Space Hulk vs 4th edition. 4th is obviously much nicer components with more fully tested rules, but the original is different enough or has rough edges some gamers love.

Nostalgia could be a factor too. Even the sort of desire for old thing that some have without having any past nostalgic influence.


Yes, but not enough to keep the value anywhere close to where it is. Those who love it will keep it and many more will sell theirs off after upgrading to the new edition and the price will plummet. This is not comics.


You have to keep the old one if you are buying the upgrade pack.
 
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John Middleton
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Epidemius wrote:
Comparing 1.3 and 1.5 KD to Descent 1st ed to Descent 2nd ed is a total false equivalency. KD 1.3 and 1.5 are near identical with some rules nuances and card modifications and GSK at the end rather than The Watcher.

Descent 1st vs Descent 2nd is 2 totally different game systems. Apples and oranges here people. KD 1.5 is basically 1.3 with an extra boss at the end, some tweaked disorders/fighting arts/innovations/principles and a little bit of new gear. The end.


I'm not comparing it. That was an example of people preferring older editions of games.


We don't know what all will be different in the new version. We can guess based on the limited info we have, but it is just a guess.


I guarantee some gamers will prefer the original.
 
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that Matt
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To answer the specific question of the poster...

ThickWK2 wrote:
Would it be dumb to get rid of the 1.3 version now?

No. It "might" be a collector's item one day. But thus far that's very rare in modern board game culture. Experience shows that it's much more likely for older editions to lose value.

Maybe one day Kingdom Death will be an international intergenerational sensation with people throwing tens of thousands of dollars around for the OG stuff from the 1st KS. But it'd be dumb to expect that.

There are other factors worth considering. The history of board games has far more mismatched upgrade kits than hyperpopular first editions... if the color of the card backs are a bit off, 1.3 + upgrade will potentially be a lot less desirable than 1.5.
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If you need the money for the baby then just sell it. I'd say the baby is more important and I don't think the gameplay and design will be altered too much to make a difference (it's not easy to change the system for such an epic game). Someone will crave for just the first edition alone but I guess it's not easy to find that someone to buy your game with a significant markup.
 
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If version 1.5 gets a gold box, like this:


I might see the original "Black Box edition" retaining its value, and maybe gaining some.



Otherwise though, I doubt it. The very high price the game was fetching on eBay was caused by a demand that far outweighed the offer. With 1.5, all (or most) of the demand for KD:M *the game* will be fulfilled. I'm sure they'll still be some demand for KD:M v1 *the collectors item*, but not nearly as much as there was for KD:M in the past couple years.
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