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Subject: Monad Riverime VS Jesca Renetton: How is this balanced? rss

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Ben Rubinstein

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So... I did google this, and was shocked to see that this hasn't been talked about.

How are these two characters remotely balanced?

Renetton: Action: Banish one of your own mages to Wound a Mage. 1 Mana.

Riverime: Action: Wound a mage and gain 1 IP.

Both wound a mage with an action and 1 mana. Renetton hurts herself to do it (banishing one of your own mages). Riverime gets a pure benefit (one IP).

Am I missing something?
 
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Philip Morton
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You can turn the self-banish into a benefit if you have instant-effect rooms in the game, or if other players wound your mages (I believe mages in the infirmary are valid targets for Banishing).

That said, yeah, it's a lot easier to make use of the IP gain than it is to make use of banishing your own mage. Maybe they're balanced around the color of mages they have to start out with? I believe the +IP one is blue, and I don't think I've seen anyone intentionally draft two blue mages in our games. Or are those two the same color?
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Trey Chambers
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Jesca is definitely a more advanced character to use, but I used her to great effect last time I played her.

It requires you to be ahead on tempo, so you probably want to draft mages and spells accordingly so that you can self-banish and then use those mages again.

Think about it this way, the main benefit is the self-banish (preferably a mage you've already gotten an instant reward from), not the wounding of an opponent. If you banish a purple or gray mage back to yourself, even better. You can come up with some really cool action chains:

Action One: Play purple mage (into an Instant room) -> cast spell that places a mage -> play gray mage.

Action Two: Play purple mage -> cast self-banish and take your first purple mage back -> play gray mage.

I've just placed 5 mages, gotten benefits from one and retrieved it, and still have two more mages place after just two actions. Since I retrieved a purple mage, I can place two mages on my next turn, and be ready to start grabbing Bell Tower cards or whatever the hell else I want to do.

(as an aside: for this very reason you would rarely, if ever, want to banish an opponent's mage that has already acted in an Instant room, unless you know the round will end before the opponent can use it AND you want to take that opponent's spot in the room and can do so immediately)
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Ben Rubinstein

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Shampoo4you wrote:
Jesca is definitely a more advanced character to use, but I used her to great effect last time I played her.

It requires you to be ahead on tempo, so you probably want to draft mages and spells accordingly so that you can self-banish and then use those mages again.

Think about it this way, the main benefit is the self-banish (preferably a mage you've already gotten an instant reward from), not the wounding of an opponent. If you banish a purple or gray mage back to yourself, even better. You can come up with some really cool action chains:

Action One: Play purple mage (into an Instant room) -> cast spell that places a mage -> play gray mage.

Action Two: Play purple mage -> cast self-banish and take your first purple mage back -> play gray mage.

I've just placed 5 mages, gotten benefits from one and retrieved it, and still have two more mages place after just two actions. Since I retrieved a purple mage, I can place two mages on my next turn, and be ready to start grabbing Bell Tower cards or whatever the hell else I want to do.

(as an aside: for this very reason you would rarely, if ever, want to banish an opponent's mage that has already acted in an Instant room, unless you know the round will end before the opponent can use it AND you want to take that opponent's spot in the room and can do so immediately)


A) This was only my 2nd game, so it's possible that I misplayed something. We did the default 4-player setup. Are there any instant-resolve rooms other than the infirmary? If so, we played them as normal resolve rooms. Oops.

B) This still seems remarkably situational. I mean, just to do your action chains, you need to prepare by drafting the precisely right mages and also obtain spells that place mages, which don't seem terribly common.
 
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Trey Chambers
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epilepticemu wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Jesca is definitely a more advanced character to use, but I used her to great effect last time I played her.

It requires you to be ahead on tempo, so you probably want to draft mages and spells accordingly so that you can self-banish and then use those mages again.

Think about it this way, the main benefit is the self-banish (preferably a mage you've already gotten an instant reward from), not the wounding of an opponent. If you banish a purple or gray mage back to yourself, even better. You can come up with some really cool action chains:

Action One: Play purple mage (into an Instant room) -> cast spell that places a mage -> play gray mage.

Action Two: Play purple mage -> cast self-banish and take your first purple mage back -> play gray mage.

I've just placed 5 mages, gotten benefits from one and retrieved it, and still have two more mages place after just two actions. Since I retrieved a purple mage, I can place two mages on my next turn, and be ready to start grabbing Bell Tower cards or whatever the hell else I want to do.

(as an aside: for this very reason you would rarely, if ever, want to banish an opponent's mage that has already acted in an Instant room, unless you know the round will end before the opponent can use it AND you want to take that opponent's spot in the room and can do so immediately)


A) This was only my 2nd game, so it's possible that I misplayed something. We did the default 4-player setup. Are there any instant-resolve rooms other than the infirmary? If so, we played them as normal resolve rooms. Oops.

B) This still seems remarkably situational. I mean, just to do your action chains, you need to prepare by drafting the precisely right mages and also obtain spells that place mages, which don't seem terribly common.


Yes, she is definitely harder to use. She is not a character I would suggest for someone to use in their 2nd game. She might be the MOST advanced, actually. But in the right hands in the right circumstances, very powerful.

There are some rooms that resolve instantly (look for the instant icon in the corner).

There are several spells in the game that let you place a mage, but even without that, the action chain is powerful. Even if you take one or two steps out of that action chain, it's still pretty damn good.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Shampoo4you wrote:
epilepticemu wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Jesca is definitely a more advanced character to use, but I used her to great effect last time I played her.

It requires you to be ahead on tempo, so you probably want to draft mages and spells accordingly so that you can self-banish and then use those mages again.

Think about it this way, the main benefit is the self-banish (preferably a mage you've already gotten an instant reward from), not the wounding of an opponent. If you banish a purple or gray mage back to yourself, even better. You can come up with some really cool action chains:

Action One: Play purple mage (into an Instant room) -> cast spell that places a mage -> play gray mage.

Action Two: Play purple mage -> cast self-banish and take your first purple mage back -> play gray mage.

I've just placed 5 mages, gotten benefits from one and retrieved it, and still have two more mages place after just two actions. Since I retrieved a purple mage, I can place two mages on my next turn, and be ready to start grabbing Bell Tower cards or whatever the hell else I want to do.

(as an aside: for this very reason you would rarely, if ever, want to banish an opponent's mage that has already acted in an Instant room, unless you know the round will end before the opponent can use it AND you want to take that opponent's spot in the room and can do so immediately)


A) This was only my 2nd game, so it's possible that I misplayed something. We did the default 4-player setup. Are there any instant-resolve rooms other than the infirmary? If so, we played them as normal resolve rooms. Oops.

B) This still seems remarkably situational. I mean, just to do your action chains, you need to prepare by drafting the precisely right mages and also obtain spells that place mages, which don't seem terribly common.


Yes, she is definitely harder to use. She is not a character I would suggest for someone to use in their 2nd game. She might be the MOST advanced, actually. But in the right hands in the right circumstances, very powerful.

There are some rooms that resolve instantly (look for the instant icon in the corner).

There are several spells in the game that let you place a mage, but even without that, the action chain is powerful. Even if you take one or two steps out of that action chain, it's still pretty damn good.


Yeah, from the default setup for 4 players, only the infirmary has the instant resolution. It seems like she gains a TON from knowing that there are instant resolution rooms, but as the rooms are setup after choosing your character; that seems a huge risk.

I told everyone to pick the character that appealed to them most before fully explaining the rules not realizing there was such a large skillcap differential between characters.
 
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Steve Scothern
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I'd be interested to know if it made a large difference to final scores?
 
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R. Eric Reuss
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I think Trey's already covered the primary benefit of Jesca Renetton - re-using mages who've already gotten benefits from instant rooms (including the infirmary).

A strong secondary use is against spells/items which move your mages around. You can retrieve them from whatever marginal action space they've been stranded on - and if they're Grey (or you have a Grey mage), immediately place them somewhere useful while also hitting an opponent. Again, this is best when you have strong tempo, both because it costs a bit of tempo to use and because you're more likely to get moved from good slots to bad if you're on the board early. (This kept happening to me last game - I don't think I used all of my merit badges in any round later than 2!)

All that being said: I think I'd consider her and the "wound one of your own mages to get mana" character the two hardest ones to play? The B-sides are largely less beginner-friendly than the A-sides. (Though "wound a mage and gain 1 IP" is both phenomenal and easy to use.)
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Ben Rubinstein

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scotherns wrote:
I'd be interested to know if it made a large difference to final scores?


I don't think it made a huge difference in the final score. I was the only one who had played the game before (and only once), and think that had a bigger impact than the characters themselves.

However, it definitely puts a damper on the first experience when it seems that one character is hands down more powerful than another. Especially when they're so similar. I do now agree that she CAN be powerful under certain circumstances. But we had no instant resolve rooms other than the Infirmary (which is how the standard 4 player setup works). So it's really only useful if one of her mages gets wounded... but no one would wound her mages specifically for that reason.
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Adam Lucas
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epilepticemu wrote:
but no one would wound her mages specifically for that reason.


I would love to have a situation like that. Put my mages in juicy locations knowing the other players might leave me alone? Sounds great to me.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Svengaard wrote:
epilepticemu wrote:
but no one would wound her mages specifically for that reason.


I would love to have a situation like that. Put my mages in juicy locations knowing the other players might leave me alone? Sounds great to me.


Eh, better to wound mages of the other two players who don't benefit from the wounding.
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