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Subject: $12 for Role Addons?? rss

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Gold Sirius
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Remember when kickstarters had free stretch goals for backers?
There are no real stretch goals in this game's kickstarter. Everything is an "addon".

I'm sorry, but, $12 for roles?? Are you serious?
:/
These roles should be available with no miniatures as regular stretch goals.
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Tomi Mononen
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I agree. price is a bit too much
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Cindy M
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I like free stretch goals as much as anyone else, but this is hardly the first campaign to make add-on stretch goals (CMON campaigns for example). The add-ons are practically expansions on their own, and they include shipping which is pretty good. Even if you don't want to count developer time into the price, shipping around the world can eat into that cost quite a bit so I doubt the publisher is making a killing on each add-on!

At the next stretch goal the price for all 3 drops to $30, which is very fair in my opinion. (Canadian Dollar being low, I get it's still pricey, but overall it's not too bad).
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Ethan Furman
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GoldSirius wrote:
Remember when kickstarters had free stretch goals for backers?


There are plenty of free stretch goals in this KS:
- moving entrance mini
- treasure chests minis
- crystal minis
- vaults, rockslides, and flame wall minis

GoldSirius wrote:
There are no real stretch goals in this game's kickstarter. Everything is an "addon".


Not true. See above.

GoldSirius wrote:
I'm sorry, but, $12 for roles?? Are you serious?


You're right. Patrick is losing money at that price and should be charging more.

GoldSirius wrote:
These roles should be available with no miniatures as regular stretch goals.


The cost of the extra roles is not in the minis, it's in the time (days, weeks, and months) that it will take to properly integrate and balance the new roles with the existing roles.
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neko flying
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stoneleaf wrote:


GoldSirius wrote:
I'm sorry, but, $12 for roles?? Are you serious?


You're right. Patrick is losing money at that price and should be charging more.



Do you know what is the cost to him to produce and deliver one of those roles? If he is losing money, people should not be buying the role, in order to support him!
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Ethan Furman
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flying_neko wrote:
stoneleaf wrote:


GoldSirius wrote:
I'm sorry, but, $12 for roles?? Are you serious?


You're right. Patrick is losing money at that price and should be charging more.



Do you know what is the cost to him to produce and deliver one of those roles? If he is losing money, people should not be buying the role, in order to support him!


You're right. "Losing money" is not the right phrase, since he's spending his free time to do it. At least, as far as I know.

The point I was trying to make is that adding new roles to the game of Vast is far more complicated than just creating a character profile and throwing a backstory at it.

I am purchasing the add-ons because of the incredible amount of fun I have had playing the game. My sister, my nephew, even my wife (who is not big into games) have all enjoyed it.

I completely understand that this game is not for everyone as there are many different types of players and types of genres. But there seem to be enough who like it, or who think they might, that this KS campaign is still growing.

That makes me happy for Patrick, and even happier for myself as it means I'll get to see more Vast related stuff in the future.
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Dom Hiob
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GoldSirius wrote:
Remember when kickstarters had free stretch goals for backers?
There are no real stretch goals in this game's kickstarter. Everything is an "addon".

I'm sorry, but, $12 for roles?? Are you serious?
:/
These roles should be available with no miniatures as regular stretch goals.


That's what I thought when I first saw the add-on stretch goal. I've come around to seeing the $12 tag as ok.

Patrick has said that each new role takes about 25% of the base game to produce. So they're really expensive in production. Also, the amount of stuff in each role/the way gameplay is enhanced is really substantial. This is not some small thing that just re-combines mechanics, it's new mechanics that need to integrate with 5 or 6 sets of pre-existing, asymmetrical rules. In other words: Would I buy this for $12 in a store? Sure. I've bought some FFG Descent Lieutenant minis before. They add much less to gameplay.

Also, note that there's a free PnP made available. Also, there are promo cards being added as "real stretch goals"

That said, at this point, my feeling is this KS is targeted mainly at those who backed the first KS (unfortunately, I didn't). The mini stretch goals are all free. The upgrade pack is a steal (especially when compared to the add-ons). So everything old backers would reasonably want to get is great value for money.
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Sergio Macias
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DomHiob wrote:
That said, at this point, my feeling is this KS is targeted mainly at those who backed the first KS (unfortunately, I didn't).


All those who got their copies on retail, and frankly, I have no problem with that.
 
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Dom Hiob
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Victor Mancha wrote:
DomHiob wrote:
That said, at this point, my feeling is this KS is targeted mainly at those who backed the first KS (unfortunately, I didn't).


All those who got their copies on retail, and frankly, I have no problem with that.


True about the retail copies, I forgot about those. I wouldn't exactly say I have a "problem" with it, but it does seem like a bit like being a second-class backer. New backers not only pay more than they would in an OLGS (for which there are good reasons). They also pay more than someone who was lucky enough to get the first printing and now gets an upgrade pack (45$+10$). Compare the contents of the upgrade pack ($10) and the full game ($60). Now compare the price tags. There's little to no margin in the upgrade packs, while the margin on the new games is pretty solid. So basically, it looks a bit like new backers are not only paying for their own copy of the game, they also subsidize giving old backers/owners a treat.

I do hope I'm wrong, though. And I'm definitely staying in, because I still think it's certainly worth it. Just voicing my feelings on this.

small afterthought: I believe in being constructive in one's criticism. With this, I have no idea for this KS, really. Patrick ought to be successful and make a profit out of this. He's decided to give some of the profit towards the upgrade pack. In my opinion, more than is good or fair (when keeping other backers in mind). But he certainly won't be able to afford giving everyone even more (and he shouldn't feel "forced" to). So my piece of advice would be: In the next KS, make sure to make all kinds of different backers feel equally "important" (by the way, this is not entirely unknown from other KSs. Frequently, when a company has had a different game on KS before and they do crossover stretch goals, new backers feel left out and start complaining).
 
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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Roles in this game make the game. They are the game.

I don't even want to imagine how difficult it is to add a new role to the existing ones without breaking the game and making sure all roles are equally playable and fun.
Using a new role instead of an existing one is like taking out ±1/4 of the game and putting back something entirely different instead.
With this in mind I'm totally happy to pay $12 per role.
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Diederik D.
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For $60 you get the game with 5 roles. For $30 you get 3 extra roles with the miniatures included. I do not think it's fair to say that this is overpriced for the extra gameplay you get.
I mean, hell, CMON asks $30 for a couple of miniatures that add almost no gameplay or replayability at all!
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Marco Teti
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I still see no pledge just for the addons that gives you the bonus card stretch goals. Is there something I'm missing?

Edit: Well I do see the pledges for the addons It's a bit confusing as they say pledge $5 for the bonus cards which is free for the main campaign that unlocked at 160k. I now assume once the Unicorn is unlocked The $30 will be for everything and not $35 (Addons + bonus cards.)?
 
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Ethan Furman
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DomHiob wrote:
New backers [...] also pay more than someone who was lucky enough to get the first printing and now gets an upgrade pack (45$+10$). Compare the contents of the upgrade pack ($10) and the full game ($60). Now compare the price tags. There's little to no margin in the upgrade packs, while the margin on the new games is pretty solid. So basically, it looks a bit like new backers are not only paying for their own copy of the game, they also subsidize giving old backers/owners a treat.


I don't know Patrick personally, only through the Vast campaigns and his presence on BGG. But I'm pretty certain the above was not his intention.

My impressions:

- great game designer (at least partly
- honest effort to make good on his promises
- a bit clumsy in communicating via posts and comments
- not a business major

I have also seen the abuse he has taken from a very vocal minority as well as the standard growing pains of starting out in a new business.

Which is all to say: he's not trying to disadvantage anyone, and is still learning. Hopefully he appreciates the honest and well-reasoned feedback so he can keep improving his business.
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Dom Hiob
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stoneleaf wrote:
DomHiob wrote:
New backers [...] also pay more than someone who was lucky enough to get the first printing and now gets an upgrade pack (45$+10$). Compare the contents of the upgrade pack ($10) and the full game ($60). Now compare the price tags. There's little to no margin in the upgrade packs, while the margin on the new games is pretty solid. So basically, it looks a bit like new backers are not only paying for their own copy of the game, they also subsidize giving old backers/owners a treat.


I don't know Patrick personally, only through the Vast campaigns and his presence on BGG. But I'm pretty certain the above was not his intention.

My impressions:

- great game designer (at least partly
- honest effort to make good on his promises
- a bit clumsy in communicating via posts and comments
- not a business major

I have also seen the abuse he has taken from a very vocal minority as well as the standard growing pains of starting out in a new business.

Which is all to say: he's not trying to disadvantage anyone, and is still learning. Hopefully he appreciates the honest and well-reasoned feedback so he can keep improving his business.

I absolutely agree with everything you said. I thought it was important to share how things come across (to a degree). Just for future campaigns. As I said, I don't have any "solution" or fix in store. So I've had my round of whining and that's that. Move on everybody, nothing to see here.

edit: If my post came across as "abusive", I'd really like to apologize. I certainly didn't mean any harm.
 
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Ethan Furman
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SgtTenor wrote:
I now assume once the Unicorn is unlocked The $30 will be for everything and not $35 (Addons + bonus cards.)?


$30. Correct.
 
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Gold Sirius
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stoneleaf wrote:


I have also seen the abuse he has taken from a very vocal minority


That comment is a very common victim card you're throwing out there. I don't know what you're talking about exactly, but my opening post is absolutely not verbal abuse.
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Dom Hiob
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GoldSirius wrote:
stoneleaf wrote:


I have also seen the abuse he has taken from a very vocal minority


That comment is a very common victim card you're throwing out there. I don't know what you're talking about exactly, but my opening post is absolutely not verbal abuse.


I think it was aiming more at early KS comments. There was one guy in particular who worked himself into a veritable rage-storm. He had had his say. He even had an answer/solution. Yet, he wouldn't quit. Some voices joined in (as is common). It was unpleasant to watch, let alone be the target of all that anger.
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Ethan Furman
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GoldSirius wrote:
stoneleaf wrote:


I have also seen the abuse he has taken from a very vocal minority


That comment is a very common victim card you're throwing out there. I don't know what you're talking about exactly, but my opening post is absolutely not verbal abuse.


Agreed, your comment isn't. (I obviously don't agree with it, but that's not the point.) My apologies.

An easy example to find of the kind of thing I'm referring to would be in the first 100 comments of the current KS -- 50 of them were from a single individual who was obviously extremely unhappy with the campaign.
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Adam Boyers
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I don't think it's been stated explicitly in this thread: Patrick has listed the base game at $60 because that is MSRP. He can't undercut MSRP without jeopardizing his relationship with distributors and game stores. The tension between MSRP and online discounted prices has been discussed ad nauseam on BGG, and is not at all limited to Vast or Leder Games.

In my opinion, Patrick is trying to be fair to all parties but he truly can't please all of the people all of the time. If he reduced the pledge level for the base game, then game stores and their customers would complain. If he didn't offer an upgrade package or priced it too highly, then owners of the first edition would complain. People have complained that he isn't offering KS exclusives, but if he did then non-backers would complain. And now people expect to receive expansions for free.
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Dom Hiob
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Boyo wrote:
I don't think it's been stated explicitly in this thread: Patrick has listed the base game at $60 because that is MSRP. He can't undercut MSRP without jeopardizing his relationship with distributors and game stores. The tension between MSRP and online discounted prices has been discussed ad nauseam on BGG, and is not at all limited to Vast or Leder Games.

In my opinion, Patrick is trying to be fair to all parties but he truly can't please all of the people all of the time. If he reduced the pledge level for the base game, then game stores and their customers would complain. If he didn't offer an upgrade package or priced it too highly, then owners of the first edition would complain. People have complained that he isn't offering KS exclusives, but if he did then non-backers would complain. And now people expect to receive expansions for free.


I fully agree about the MSRP. I also agree about exclusives and it being an impossible task to please everyone. As I said, I've had my round of whining. There's one (last) point that I'd like to address, though. It took quite some talking until Patrick chose to have stretch goals other than add-ons. Upgrade backers had it a lot easier, I feel. And their improvements of the deal were unconditional. So no, you can't fully please all people. But you should take care to please everyone to about the same degree. /whine
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Quote:
Upgrade backers had it a lot easier, I feel.

Upgrade backers also backed an unproven game from an unproven developer. So, you know, there's that.
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Michelle
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GoldSirius wrote:
Remember when kickstarters had free stretch goals for backers?


That's exactly how this game got to be as big as it is. This is a Kickstarter to fund a reprint of a game that is chock full of stretch goals from the 1st kickstarter, and to fund the production of miniatures.

GoldSirius wrote:
There are no real stretch goals in this game's kickstarter. Everything is an "addon".


The miniatures pack has had many stretch goals added to it for free. The upgrade pack has had stuff added to it for free and is now a ridiculously low price for what it includes. Multiple sets of bonus cards have been added to all pledge levels as free stretch goals. Those take development and playtesting time, art costs, and possibly a separate print order.

GoldSirius wrote:
I'm sorry, but, $12 for roles?? Are you serious?
:/


Even without the minis, the expansions would still have a cardboard standee, a sheet of tokens, a large cardboard player mat, and over a dozen cards (all of the foregoing require new art); a plastic standee holder, cube(s) and/or dice; a meeple that has to be custom designed and manufactured; and development/playtesting time. Are you *really* saying that all that stuff +a mini is not worth $10-$12, or that you think Patrick ought to absorb the cost of the above materials x3?

How many games can you think of that sell a similar amount of content and components for less than $10-$12? Claustrophobia's t-rex expansion was like $25-$30 for a similar amount of cardboard, plastic, and paper. Mage Knight's Krang is ~$20. Arcadia Quest sells just a single character mini and a card for ~$13. Descent Lieutenant plus a bit of paper and cardboard is ~$10-12. Summoner wars sells just ~40 cards, for $10.

Mold costs are extremely high for plastic minis. These are optional expansions, so the initial cost is not going to be offset by huge future sales. Expansions already don't sell as many copies as a base game, and these aren't the kind of must-have expansion that every player is going to pick up (e.g. the ghost is for advanced players).

GoldSirius wrote:
These roles should be available with no miniatures...


It is expensive to have a factory parcel parts out in a bunch of different ways for different backers. If the expansions are to be sold in normal distribution, they need to have everything packaged together nicely in a retail-able package.

GoldSirius wrote:
...as regular stretch goals.


Which pledge levels do you think should get the expansions for free, and how would you avoid having people at lower levels (especially original backers not wanting miniatures) being upset that they aren't getting stuff for free?

Re other comments about KS1 backers getting the game for cheaper:

They backed the game at much higher risk and with their money tied up for longer. I saw the 1st KS campaign and skipped it, because I was skeptical that the game would be any good or would deliver as promised. We're essentially pre-ordering a reprint of a game we know is a big hit, that's being printed pretty much as we speak.
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Dom Hiob
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kc2dpt wrote:
Quote:
Upgrade backers had it a lot easier, I feel.

Upgrade backers also backed an unproven game from an unproven developer. So, you know, there's that.

not necessarily, as was pointed out above. You could have got a first edition copy in retail. Also, I was talking more about how it took quite some talking to to have Patrick offer promo cards as stretch goals, while the upgrade pack got ever more stuff into it automatically. But as I said before, there's really nothing to see here. Patrick made a decision. I'm not happy about it. I said what I had to say and that's that for me.
 
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C&H Schmidt
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One thing: It absolutely makes sense that original Kickstarter backers paid somewhat less than backers pay now for the second printing!
First of all, I think that Patrick made hardly any money on the Kickstarter copies from the first printing due to shipping turning out more expensive than he originally thought; second, when we backed for the first printing, the game had never been seen in public, wasn't fully developped, nor did it really have reviews. (It did have the PnP.) So it was clearly a larger risk at that point, so it makes sense to incentivise backing with a lower-than-usual price (which that definitely was).

Edit: I really appreciate very much that Patrick is making the update pack available at a fair price!
I mean, we first-edition backers got the game off the ground -- it always really sucks when you pay for the first edition of a game (while the game is still being developped in this case!) and people who jump in later get the improved edition without the early adopters having a shot at the upgrades. I mean, do it that way and next time no one wants to back before the first printing of anything!
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Peter Rabinowitz
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GoldSirius wrote:
I'm sorry, but, $12 for roles?? Are you serious?


I think, perhaps, you don't know what "roles" in this game are. This isn't like a game with a bunch of characters who basically play the same but with some stat tweaks. In Vast, each role is like a completely different game. Each role is basically a complete expansion. Is $12 for an expansion reasonable? New cards, new tokens, new wooden bits, new rules, and most importantly a new way to play? Something which changes the whole package? Absolutely.

Quote:
These roles should be available with no miniatures as regular stretch goals.

The miniatures are the least expensive part of the package. The creators have said, multiple times, that the cost of making two different packages, one with minis and one without, far exceeds the cost of the minis themselves.

I think the only mistake they made is calling these new roles "addons". Calling them "expansions" is much more accurate for what you're getting.
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