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Subject: A case for extra Art of War cards rss

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Daniel Guinoza
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Hello,

All the cards from the KS (Typhon Pledge, including Python) sum up to 81 art of war cards (required per unit). If you want to host more than 2 battles simultaneously, you'd need more omphalos cards and more dice sets and art of war cards. Also, extra AoW's make up an alternative storage solution feasible:

Store each miniature along with their activation + art of war cards. This way, you just draft, pick your units and cards and play. If it were otherwise, you'd have to spend some time calculating how many Art of War cards each player needed and giving each theirs (which would be inconvenient for a tournament, too). After a game, you just store the AoW that each unit requires. Note this methodology includes "enough AoW to play with X players", since you can't have any amount of players using more AoW's than all units allow.


Additionally, the amount of Omphalos cards does need to increase for the players that want to host multiple games. You would need around 7 per skirmish. Maybe the AoW deck could include also a set of +15 Omphalos cards.

Thus, the request would be for another set of AoW's and Omphalos exactly like included in the core set (54 AoW, 15 Omphalos) available at the pledge manager. This would allow simplified storage and help players wanting to play four parallel skirmishes.

Thanks


Edit: The required extra cards for a given number of players is as follows (assuming each pair of players plays a skirmish match, everyone at the same time):

The AoW/RP ratio is fortunately small, except: Sysiphus gives 4 AoW for 2 points, the rest of the best 'smart cheap' heroes (Atalanta, Odysseus, Eurystheus, Agamemnon) have a 1.0 ratio. Considering the highest AoW God have 3 then 2 of 2 then a lot of 1's, if every player happened to pick the most AoW-heavy army, you'll need: 3+4+10, that is 17 for the heaviest AoW army. The rest of the players will need at most 2+12=14 per player. The formula is 17 + 14(p-1).

2 players: Nothing extra
4 players: 5 AoW, 1 set of dice.
6 players: 33(28) AoW, 2 set of dice, 6 Omphalos cards
8 players: 61(28) AoW, 3 set of dice, 13 Omphalos cards
10 players:89(28) AoW, 4 set of dice, 20 Omphalos.

Note the cap is currently set at 27 extra AoW for Typhon bundle, and add 1 if you want to also add 1 AoW to the Paolo's alternate art units. This means if you want 6+ players, you only need at most 28 AoW's

Note the first Omphalos increase requires only 6 because the core comes with 15 (1 extra).
Also note that these numbers are exaggerated and represent the utmost ceiling that will never be realistically achievable ("just to be on the safe side"): the calculations don't include lesser AoW/RP ratios, and players won't pick weak units for the sake of screwing your AoW calculations.

Anyways, it shows approximately how many extras you need if you want to host 6-10 player tournaments.


Sleeves info:


This means, for any person that wanted to use this method would require:

Titan/Typhon: 27 extra AoW. (445Act) (526 Sleeves or 541 with Omphalos)
God: 0 (9 AoW surplus) (248Act) (41+15+248 = 304 sleeves if you don't sleeve 9 AoW's)

Only God pledge won't require any extra AoW's, but if they start including expansions, then this number will rise quickly:

Poseidon +4 (35Act) = 39 sleeves
Hephaestus +5 (29Act) = 34 sleeves
Hera +11 (41Act) = 52 sleeves
Titans +3 (15Act) = 18 sleeves

Hell Judges +3 (12Act) = 15 sleeves
Manticore +0 (5Act) = 5 sleeves
Oedipus +1 (7Act) = 8 sleeves
Heroes of the Trojan War +9 (18Act) = 27 sleeves
Echidna's +0 (13Act) = 13 sleeves

Paolo Parente: +1 (11Act) = +12 sleeves.

The number of required activation cards are shown per pledge (and per addon if you are planning on getting only the core + some expansions).

If you want a Typhon Bundle, sleeve the Paolo's cards as well as the regular ones, and get all the required extra AoW's and Omphalos, you need:

6 players: 587 sleeves
8 players: 587 sleeves
10 players: 587 sleeves + 1 extra set of dice.
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Ben Clapperton
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"t is more practical imo to store each miniature along with their activation + art of war cards. This way, you just draft, pick your units and cards and play. If it were otherwise, you'd have to spend some time calculating how many Art of War cards each player needed and giving each theirs (which would be inconvenient for a tournament, too)"

Never found that an issue when playing, and if anything doing it like that takes more time. When you draft the unit, you just count off the number you need from the top of the AoW deck whilst your opponent is making their decision. After the game, you just filter out the AoW cards from your deck and put them back. It saves no time having them separate, and adds time at the end because you need to count them out for each unit rather than just stacking them up.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Hm, indeed. If you play on 3 boards simultanously you may at least need 2 more dice sets and a handful of omphalos (not sure how many you need per board but the core box will get you 15).

We get 54 AoW cards .. 9 per player, you get at least 3. Not sure if it's likely that all the players have units that provide 6 extra. But yes, 15 extra or so would be nice, better safe than sorry. Preferably with 15 extra omphalos or something? How many do you need per board?
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Daniel Guinoza
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redben wrote:
Never found that an issue when playing, and if anything doing it like that takes more time. When you draft the unit, you just count off the number you need from the top of the AoW deck whilst your opponent is making their decision. After the game, you just filter out the AoW cards from your deck and put them back. It saves no time having them separate, and adds time at the end because you need to count them out for each unit rather than just stacking them up.


That is also practical, but having more also allows more simultaneous skirmishes. You have to think not only with a core game demo in mind (where that is more practical), but my point (and many others who wish to host multiple skirmishes) is what do you do when you have 8 players and the typhon all in. What do you do when you want to play? Do you take out all the houndreds of minis? that is not practical. What I'd do is have a small library of boxes, each having what it exactly needs to play. A player asks for units #11, 14, 57, 103. That'd be easier to find and store. The time to store it is negligible because you actually have to also separate each unit's activation cards from your deck, so with any method you always have to go through your deck at least once.

Lets say this is an additional reason to 'having enough to host multiple games'. I'm sure almost no one will take the time to store it as I plan to, but it is an extra benefit at no cost for the players already requesting them for more skirmishes.

Also, the number of AoW's in the core is just an impractical number. It is way too much for just the core set, but not enough to complete the all-in. I'd rather have the core came with 9 less, and those 9 used to make the extra add-on. It won't happen because we are promised to get 54, but the number is still awkward.

And we also don't necessarily need the same AoW/Omphalos. An alternate art one as a promo or what not would be welcome.

Teowulff wrote:
We get 54 AoW cards .. 9 per player, you get at least 3. Not sure if it's likely that all the players have units that provide 6 extra. But yes, 15 extra or so would be nice, better safe than sorry. Preferably with 15 extra omphalos or something? How many do you need per board?


You need 7 Omphalos cards per 1v1 skirmish. The AoW per player is a variable number, so it is safer to count what each unit actually requires. I pointed that you'd actually need Omphalos and dice first, but more AoW's are still useful.
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Prufrock

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I fully agree with you. With the amount of add-ons/expansions it seems entirely possible to run 2 simultaneous 2v2 matches given the amount of units/maps (maybe with a slightly reduced army BPs--I haven't run the numbers).

Having the extra Omphalos/AoW cards are the only things lacking to make this possible/smoothly supported and it seems like it would be a real missed opportunity to not include these cards as add-ons. I don't know how often I'm going to get groups together to play MB:P so I want to be able to include as many people as possible when I do break out the boxes.

If they don't include them I was probably going to use undrafted activation cards to represent missing AoW/Omphalos cards for decks. Inelegant and a pain, especially since I'd rather have the cards than the Conan Crossover from the Typhon pledge, but better than being hindered or stopped by a lack of cards.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Arah wrote:
You need 7 Omphalos cards per 1v1 skirmish. The AoW per player is a variable number, so it is safer to count what each unit actually requires. I pointed that you'd actually need Omphalos and dice first, but more AoW's are still useful.

Yes I see! So for 3 players you might need:
- 2 sets of extra dice
- 0-15 AoW cards
- 10 Omphalos cards
- 10-15 Omphalos tokens?

Just checking! :-)
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Chris Rindfleisch
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I know it's not the same as having official AOW cards, but in theory you could always make your own by scanning, printing on card stock, and sleeving your cards. A sleeved home-made card feels exactly the same as a sleeved official card, so they should mix in without too much of a problem.
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Daniel Guinoza
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JavertPrufrock wrote:
If they don't include them I was probably going to use undrafted activation cards to represent missing AoW/Omphalos cards for decks.


They being the same material, it works as long as they don't get curved and you wanted to put them face down with sleeved cards.

Teowulff wrote:
So for 3 players you might need:
- 2 sets of extra dice
- 0-15 AoW cards
- 10 Omphalos cards
- 10-15 Omphalos tokens?


I will make some calculations and update the op with information on requirements per amount of players.

Inmat4251 wrote:
I know it's not the same as having official AOW cards, but in theory you could always make your own by scanning, printing on card stock, and sleeving your cards. A sleeved home-made card feels exactly the same as a sleeved official card, so they should mix in without too much of a problem.


The problem of mixing is that you'd end up with 'marked' cards. They all need to be the same, either all official or all proxy.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Arah wrote:

I will make some calculations and update the op with information on requirements per amount of playe

Thanks! I don't even know the amount of Omphalos cards in the core box - or the max. number of omphalos on a map.
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Daniel Guinoza
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Teowulff wrote:
Arah wrote:

I will make some calculations and update the op with information on requirements per amount of playe

Thanks! I don't even know the amount of Omphalos cards in the core box - or the max. number of omphalos on a map.


Both on the rulebook: 15 cards total and 7 omphalos per 1v1 skirmish
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Tyrone
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Agreed with having more AoW/ Omphalos cards as add-ons.

The amount of content included in the base game would already be enough to run three 4-player games simultaneously (buy extra map and dice), what more for owners of the Typhon bundle.

With that many players, the current amount of AoW cards + Omphalos Cards would not be enough.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Arah wrote:
Teowulff wrote:
Arah wrote:

I will make some calculations and update the op with information on requirements per amount of playe

Thanks! I don't even know the amount of Omphalos cards in the core box - or the max. number of omphalos on a map.


Both on the rulebook: 15 cards total and 7 omphalos per 1v1 skirmish

Yup.

So 6 players/3 boards:
You need 6*3=18 Omphalos cards (you get 15)
You need 3*7=21 Omphalos (you get 15)

For 6 players/2 boards:
You need 6*3=18 Omphalos cards (you get 15)
You need 2*10=20 Omphalos (you get 15)

For 8 players/4 boards:
You need 8*3=24 Omphalos cards (you get 15)
You need 4*7=28 Omphalos (you get 15)

So for 6 players you'll want at least 3 more Omphalos cards and 6 Omphalos.

What AoW cards are concerned you get 54. 6 players get 3 each to start with so 6*3=18, 54-18=36 left, 6 each.
8 players get 8*3=24, 54-24=30 left, a litle less than 4 each.
Some units give 2-3 (and in 1 case: 4) AoW cards so a few more can't do any harm. If all need 6 extra cards, that's 48 .. +24 (starting cards) = 72.

So all in all, I would think an add-on pack with:
- 9 Omphamlos cards
- 13 Omphalos and
- 20 AoW cards
should do the trick for 6-8 players!
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Not saying that im gonna achieve this but, what about Omphalos and Omphalos' cards if you wanna have a game on each of the 7 boards?

And if you are playing different game modes? For example 3-player All v All needs 10 omphalos instead of 7. Im not sure how much do you need for 4-player All vs All.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Ar_key wrote:
Not saying that im gonna achieve this but, what about Omphalos and Omphalos' cards if you wanna have a game on each of the 7 boards?

And if you are playing different game modes? For example 3-player All v All needs 10 omphalos instead of 7. Im not sure how much do you need for 4-player All vs All.


1. 1 vs 1 requires the highest number of Omphalos per player. Per board it's 3*(number of players)+1. So in a 2 player it's (3*2)+1=7, in a 3 player (3*3)+1=10 and in a 1v1v1v1 (4*3)+1=13.
This is in case all players get 3 and only one God can absorb a 4th, which ends the game. So for 8 players on 4 boards you need 7*4=28 Omphalos. For 7 boards with 3 players each 10*7=70.

2. The number of Omphalos cards is just 3*(number of players).
So for 8 players you'd need 24. For 7 boards w/ 3 players each that's 3*7*3=63.

3. Not sure if anyone has already given it a thought but you can actually enforce a God kill scenario. Because rulebook p.29 :"All units except for the God can leave the battlefield. The outside of the battlefield is considered to be an accessible area. If a unit leaves the battlefield, it leaves the game for good. If it was carrying an omphalos, it is removed from the board."

Apparently you can take away Omphalos from the board, so if you both have 3, you can remove one - at the expense of a unit. The only way to end the game will then be killing the other God.
If one of your heroes or monsters is about to get killed, you can also run off the board with an omphalos to prevent your opponent from getting it.
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Teowulff wrote:
3. Not sure if anyone has already given it a thought but you can actually enforce a God kill scenario. Rulebook p.29 : because "All units except for the God can leave the battlefield. The outside of the battlefield is considered to be an accessible area. If a unit leaves the battlefield, it leaves the game for good. If it was carrying an omphalos, it is removed from the board."

Apparently you can take away Omphalos from the board, so if you both have 3, you can remove one - at the expense of a unit. If one of your heroes or monsters is about to get killed, you can also run off the board with an omphalos.


How interesting! Never knew this was part of the rules.
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Tyrone
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Teowulff wrote:
..If one of your heroes or monsters is about to get killed, you can also run off the board with an omphalos to prevent your opponent from getting it.

If I'm not mistaken, I have read somewhere that you cannot just 'run off' the board during a regular skirmish game. You also can't be 'mighty thrown' off the board just the same. Do correct me if I am wrong though.

Anyway, this is in line with what Leo had said that units in MBP aren't cowards. Also, if you can run off the map to force a god-kill scenario, this would be a too easy counter (and a cheesy one at that) to army builds that are centered on omphalos hunting and are weak against direct confrontation. You could just use troops to run away and resummon them back, so that you don't lose critical units on the board, unless this rule:

"...If a unit leaves the battlefield, it leaves the game for good. If it was carrying an omphalos, it is removed from the board."

..Prevents troops from being resummoned back. If that's the case, another strategy would be to choose multiple 1RP units and use them to carry omphalos off the map. And how about troops summoned by gods/ heroes? Will they be gone for good? Or can they be summoned back again since unit powers override game rules? How would this work? it would simply scream OP if you could continously resummon the pigs, spiders, and dog troops and use them to carry all omphalos off the map.


Also, an argument against having units simply run off the board with an omphalos:

What if for example, absorbing omphalos is player A's only option left to win the game, eg. as his units are already too weak or were not really drafted to go head to head against player B's more powerful units. Then player B makes a mistake and allows player A to corner 1 of his omphalos-carrying units. So instead of giving it to player A, he just runs off with the omphalos. Now, in this case, instead of rewarding player A with a win because of good play, you effectively ended the game right there with a simple and cheesy tactic so to speak, which simply isn't fair.

This might not happen often, but removing possible come back mechanics and allowing such cheese tactics to easily overcome well thought out plans is just bad for any game in my opinion.
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Turonee wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, I have read somewhere that you cannot just 'run off' the board during a regular skirmish game. You also can't be 'mighty thrown' off the board just the same. Do correct me if I am wrong though.

I'm just quoting the rulebook and saying what it implicates.
You can't be thrown off the board, no. Unlike running off, that's not a voluntary action, of course.

Quote:
Also, if you can run off the map to force a god-kill scenario, this would be a too easy counter (and a cheesy one at that) to army builds that are centered on omphalos hunting and are weak against direct confrontation. ( .. ) another strategy would be to choose multiple 1RP units and use them to carry omphalos off the map.

Well I think it does work like that, although in order to run off with the last Omphalos:

a) you first have to fend off the other 3 omphalos, run off with the other 3 (which will not happen unnoticed) - or absorb them yourself; it might be handier to just let your God absorb the other Omphalos instead of sacrificing 4RP worth of units. And if your do so - you may as well absorb that 4th one!?

b) I would think the rules say that you can't recall them even if it concerns Troops is true: "...If a unit leaves the battlefield, it leaves the game for good".
For good means for good. So that would definitely count for regular or unit-specific Troops as well.
By doing that you lose the carrying unit forever - so your remaining army is relatively weaker. 4RP worth of units is a serious handicap if you let them run off the board.
If you still manage to win that way (8RP worth of units vs 12RP worth of units), I think you deserve a win!

And well you can call it unfair, cheesy or whatever but if the rules imply that you can use this tactic, I'd say it's a valid one.
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Tyrone
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@Teowulff
If that's the case then it could be a cheesy tactic indeed.

Running off using 4RP units isn't ideal, and I agree would cause more problems than advantages. But running off using 1RP units could be a viable tactic. Using one, two, or even three 1RP units to take away 3 omphalos from your enemy's side would be such a huge advantage if pulled off correctly. And if you drafted right, the remaining 9-10RP units could still be enough to cause your enemy a big headache on top of already losing 3 omphalos from his side of the board. Granted it may not be as easy as it sounds, but it still falls on the 'too cheesy' category in terms of strategy.

Also, how about the 0RP troops that are summoned by heroes/ gods? Don't unit powers override the rules? As it is a unit power, would 0RP troops still be recallable by their corresponding masters after they have left the map? Or will this be a case of another exception to the rule?

If cheesy tactics are legally allowed, depending on how easy it is to execute them, it could only spell bad news for any game's fun factor in the long run. I have yet to see a game with a very exploitable cheese tactic remain enjoyable after so many plays. Of course unless we have the game in our hands we can only speculate. But it would be nice if this potential issue is addressed before the game goes retail. Because if it is indeed a problem and gets free into the wild, it would be disasterous for a potentially great game such as MBP.
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Loig Roumois
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here comes the stupid question: what is "on" the AoW cards? are tehy even required? The way I've understood it, they are a form of "resource" that can be spend. Could one just as well use tokens, chips or anything else really to symbolize this "resource"? or do they have to be cards?
I haven't read the rulebook yet, I've just followed the KS and pledged a lot of money lol
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Loig wrote:
here comes the stupid question: what is "on" the AoW cards? are tehy even required? The way I've understood it, they are a form of "resource" that can be spend. Could one just as well use tokens, chips or anything else really to symbolize this "resource"? or do they have to be cards?
I haven't read the rulebook yet, I've just followed the KS and pledged a lot of money lol

Well AoW cards are mixed with your unit activation cards - so making them into tokens would be rather unpractical!
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Turonee wrote:
If that's the case then it could be a cheesy tactic indeed.

Well, I didn't invent those rules. Just stating the consequences.

Quote:
Also, how about the 0RP troops that are summoned by heroes/ gods? Don't unit powers override the rules? As it is a unit power, would 0RP troops still be recallable by their corresponding masters after they have left the map? Or will this be a case of another exception to the rule?

I bet they can't come back. The idea behind the recalling is that the units that are recalled are different than the dead ones; more hoplites arriving, more harpies that come flying from the mountains. If they run off the board, they stop fighting as a whole and don't want to be part of this war anymore.

Quote:
If cheesy tactics are legally allowed, depending on how easy it is to execute them, it could only spell bad news for any game's fun factor in the long run. I have yet to see a game with a very exploitable cheese tactic remain enjoyable after so many plays.

Well I am not sure if everyone would find it "foul play" to use the run away ability. I haven't really got an opinion about it yet. I was just thinking it would be rather difficult to pull off to remove 4 omphalos from the board and not severely weaken yourself in the meantime, not only the RP but also all the activations you need in order to do so.
Must admit I found it a bit surprising that these rules are only mentioned at the very end of the rulebook under "Special Rules". Perhaps they are only meant as "Optional Rules"
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Loig Roumois
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aahhh I see. lol
Now I really do sound stupid

But to be fair, this was not really mentioned anywhere, right? I guess if you are a veteran of the game it seems silly, but for a newcomer like me...
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Teowulff wrote:

Well, I didn't invent those rules. Just stating the consequences.

I understand this, and you're of no fault of course, but it still is cheesy though.


Teowulff wrote:

I bet they can't come back. The idea behind the recalling is that the units that are recalled are different than the dead ones; more hoplites arriving, more harpies that come flying from the mountains. If they run off the board, they stop fighting as a whole and don't want to be part of this war anymore.

I understand how it can apply to hoplites and most other troops, but it doesnt seem right with troops under specific control of a hero/god eg. the spiders, wolves, and dogs.

I imagine they're in some kind of mind control, so running away from battle doesn't seem as likely. But if for some reason they do break away from it, said heroes can just control them back or mind control/summon *new* ones. Then there's Artemis' pets. I'm fairly sure they wouldn't leave her for anything, and that they'd most likely die for her instead of running away..unless things have changed and everything is fair game in war?

That's how I see it at least.


Teowulff wrote:
Well I am not sure if everyone would find it "foul play" to use the run away ability. I haven't really got an opinion about it yet. I was just thinking it would be rather difficult to pull off to remove 4 omphalos from the board and not severely weaken yourself in the meantime, not only the RP but also all the activations you need in order to do so.
Must admit I found it a bit surprising that these rules are only mentioned at the very end of the rulebook under "Special Rules". Perhaps they are only meant as "Optional Rules"

Agreed, circumstances would dictate its viability. Though the potential for it to be exploited is there and that's what I'm worried about. But if thorough playtesting has revealed it to be a non-issue then that's fine.

I just think it would be good for the game if we bring these potential issues to light so that if they do cause problems, they're fixed before the game goes gold.
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Loig Roumois
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Well I think (even being a noob at MBP) that you should not confuse "theme" with "rules". Yes of course Artemis dogs would never run away in "theme", but if they are allowed to by the rules, then they can. For a game like MBP that has tournament ambitions they better iron out these rule issues. Because these kind of loopholes WILL be taken advantage of in tournaments!
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Abe
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I just read the rule book (again) and it seems the rule in which you can run off the board is under the "Special Rules" subsection of the "THREE VS ONE MODE" gameplay. The way "Special Rules" is labelled is the same as "Recruitment" under this game mode. It might be confusing since it ended up at the start of a new page. So I think you can only run off the board under the "THREE VS ONE MODE" and not any others.
 
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