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Subject: Purification tokens rss

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Craig Vista
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Illinois
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Is it mandatory to use a Purification Token when a disease cube is placed on a city surrounding that "purified" region, or can you choose not to use the purification token (keeping the token in that region to use at another time)?
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Richard Ham
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I had assumed you can't choose, because once you've made the purified water available to the people of the region, you lose all control over it, and it's first come first served. The rules seem pretty clear that you don't get to pick and choose:

Quote:
To infect a city, place 1 disease cube matching its color onto
the city. If there is a purification token in a region adjacent
to the city, however, remove 1 purification token from an
adjacent region (returning it to the supply) instead of placing a
cube.
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Deb Wentworth
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rahdo wrote:
I had assumed you can't choose, because once you've made the purified water available to the people of the region, you lose all control over it, and it's first come first served. The rules seem pretty clear that you don't get to pick and choose:

Quote:
To infect a city, place 1 disease cube matching its color onto
the city. If there is a purification token in a region adjacent
to the city, however, remove 1 purification token from an
adjacent region (returning it to the supply) instead of placing a
cube.


Interesting! I completely missed that & we've been playing it as an optional alternative.
 
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Craig Vista
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Illinois
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Thanks Rahdo! We played it today for the first time and had fun (although we lost to the dreaded outbreaks).
 
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rahdo wrote:
I had assumed you can't choose, because once you've made the purified water available to the people of the region, you lose all control over it, and it's first come first served. The rules seem pretty clear that you don't get to pick and choose:


I think it's deliberately set up as a kind of gamble - you may have purified the water in a region because you have a couple of towns ready to outbreak ... but you can't be sure that the tokens won't be used by some of the other towns in that region.

BTW, a technicality I had to double-check ... some spots look like regions but aren't. Regions must be *enclosed* by lines. If a place is on the outside of the map and doesn't have lines all around it, it's not a region and can't have purification tokens. I was looking at the area just north of Huesca.
 
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Thomas Lajeunesse
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Hello, I have another questions about these tokens.

They prevent the arrival of a disease cube. But what about when there is already 3 cubes, since no cube is added then : it's an outbreak !

Do we remove a token and prevent the outbreak ?

BTW, I agree with the tokens being automatically used if they are available for a town, and not players being able to reserve them for a specific one.

Thank you
 
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Martin Juhl
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Duncan wrote:
Hello, I have another questions about these tokens.

They prevent the arrival of a disease cube. But what about when there is already 3 cubes, since no cube is added then : it's an outbreak !

Do we remove a token and prevent the outbreak ?

BTW, I agree with the tokens being automatically used if they are available for a town, and not players being able to reserve them for a specific one.

Thank you


Yes, the purified water token serve to prevent an outbreak in this case.
 
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Sam S
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Do they prevent the placement of the 3 cubes during a epidemic? One of the three?
 
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Martin Juhl
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TheProdigal wrote:
Do they prevent the placement of the 3 cubes during a epidemic? One of the three?


Yes they prevent placement of cubes also durring epedemics.
If there are two water-tokens in a region bordering a city in which to place three cubes durring an epedemic simply just place one cube and remove the two water-tokens.
Hope this helps.
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Jeppe Nybo
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On a related note, how does purification tokens and maleria interact in a city without preexisting black cubes?
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Brad103
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mjuhl wrote:
Duncan wrote:
Hello, I have another questions about these tokens.

They prevent the arrival of a disease cube. But what about when there is already 3 cubes, since no cube is added then : it's an outbreak !

Do we remove a token and prevent the outbreak ?

BTW, I agree with the tokens being automatically used if they are available for a town, and not players being able to reserve them for a specific one.

Thank you


Yes, the purified water token serve to prevent an outbreak in this case.


Is this an official answer? Because technically, during an outbreak, no 4th cube is added to the city to be prevented. If anything the prevention tokens would just prevent the addition of cubes in a neighboring region of the outbreak location.
 
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B Lee
South Korea
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Braffe wrote:
mjuhl wrote:
Duncan wrote:
Hello, I have another questions about these tokens.

They prevent the arrival of a disease cube. But what about when there is already 3 cubes, since no cube is added then : it's an outbreak !

Do we remove a token and prevent the outbreak ?

BTW, I agree with the tokens being automatically used if they are available for a town, and not players being able to reserve them for a specific one.

Thank you


Yes, the purified water token serve to prevent an outbreak in this case.


Is this an official answer? Because technically, during an outbreak, no 4th cube is added to the city to be prevented. If anything the prevention tokens would just prevent the addition of cubes in a neighboring region of the outbreak location.

Yes, I believe the latter interpretation is correct: purification tokens do not prevent outbreaks.


According to the rulebook:

- During the infection phase, "If the city already has 3 cubes of this color, do not place a 4th cube. Instead, an outbreak of this disease occurs in the city (see Outbreaks below)." [Underline added]

- And when resolving an outbreak, "place 1 cube of the disease color on every city connected to the city (or remove a purification token if any)."


Looks like I've been playing it wrong all this while....
(I also missed the fact that purification tokens also count when resolving epidemic cards, which mjuhl is right about. The rulebook explicitly says so.)



This thread prompted me to go over the rulebook again, and made me appreciate how consistent the terminology is.
Basically, infecting a city = placing 1 cube on the city.

An epidemic means a city is infected 3 times (= 3 cubes are placed on the city).
An outbreak means a city with 3 infections is not infected again ("do not place a 4th cube"), and instead all adjacent cities are infected (= 1 cube is placed on each adjacent city).

Purification tokens only prevent infections (= cube placement on cities).
Since an outbreak is not the same thing as an infection, purification tokens do not prevent outbreaks, although they do prevent resulting infections in adjacent cities.



The Dalean wrote:
On a related note, how does purification tokens and maleria interact in a city without preexisting black cubes?

For the Historical Diseases, the rulebook does not explicitly mention purification tokens.
But following the convention outlined above, I believe the rule would always be '1 purification token prevents 1 infection (= 1 cube placement)'.

For malaria, this means 'placing 2 cubes when a city is free of malaria = infecting the city 2 times = remove 1 purification token per infection/cube'.
(For example, if a city that has no black cubes is hit with malaria and there is only 1 purification token in the adjacent regions, remove the token and place 1 cube on the city.)
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Thomas Lajeunesse
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That's exactly that : as the rules are written, purification tokens clearly do not protect from outbreaks since an outbreak is not a cube placement (at least not in the city where the outbreak triggers).

But I have the strongest feeling this contradicts the whole idea of it, and it seems to me that this could most easily have been missed in the writing of the rules. If it wasn't the case, I'm quite sure such a thing would have been explicitely specified.

Discussing about this is the whole idea behind my asking the question here. I don't think we can just stick to the written word there : we have to understand the purpose of this rule. Or have the designers intervene...

In the meantime, just do as you prefer. The game balance won't fall apart over such a tiny thing.
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john whitelock
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Congleton
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Exactly the same argument can be made about the Nurse's prevention token. The card reads 'no disease cubes may be added' which strictly speaking they aren't in the case of an out-break city.
The way we have played it is that an outbreak is like a virtual fourth cube - which in the case of either a purification or prevention token is just not placed - therefore no outbreak
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Franz Kafka
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Duncan wrote:
That's exactly that : as the rules are written, purification tokens clearly do not protect from outbreaks since an outbreak is not a cube placement (at least not in the city where the outbreak triggers).

But I have the strongest feeling this contradicts the whole idea of it, and it seems to me that this could most easily have been missed in the writing of the rules. If it wasn't the case, I'm quite sure such a thing would have been explicitely specified.


I really like this point. "Purification tokens don't prevent outbreaks" seems counterintuitive enough that I think they would have spelled it out if they meant that.

I'd interpret it as:
If you would add a cube, first check whether a purification token would prevent it. If so, remove a purification token and stop.
Otherwise, check whether it would be the 4th cube. If so, resolve an outbreak and stop.
Otherwise, add a cube.
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I like to think that the purification tokens and nurse's token have evolved from the quarantine specialist's ability which does prevent outbreaks...
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B Lee
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JohnLW wrote:
The way we have played it is that an outbreak is like a virtual fourth cube - which in the case of either a purification or prevention token is just not placed - therefore no outbreak

That's exactly how I understood it too, before I read the rules again.
But the wording of the rules seems to indicate that an outbreak happens, not as the result of a virtual fourth cube, but in place of it.
(On second thought, maybe it would be better to say that the wording is ambiguous.)

Also, the rulebook is pretty good about pointing out whenever purification tokens come into play (at least in the base game rules), so it seems strange that the outbreak rules only mention them with regard to the adjacent cities.


That said, I agreed with:
Duncan wrote:
[T]his could most easily have been missed in the writing of the rules.

[...]

I don't think we can just stick to the written word there : we have to understand the purpose of this rule. Or have the designers intervene...

In the meantime, just do as you prefer. The game balance won't fall apart over such a tiny thing.


Although I don't necessarily think the intention is clearly for the tokens to prevent outbreaks.
(I don't have On the Brink, but it seems that with the quarantine specialist, the rule specifically states that outbreaks are also prevented?)

I would guess that if the tokens don't prevent outbreaks, the game becomes a bit harder, since this means that you can't safely let 3 cubes build up in a city and just put tokens in an adjacent region.
I'm going to try playing this way and see how it changes things.
 
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Franz Kafka
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otteralf wrote:
Also, the rulebook is pretty good about pointing out whenever purification tokens come into play (at least in the base game rules), so it seems strange that the outbreak rules only mention them with regard to the adjacent cities.

This makes sense to me. The outbreak rules ("Outbreaks" header under the "Infections" section) only discuss what to do when you know you have an outbreak. Once you start resolving an outbreak, you only care about using the purification tokens for the adjacent cities.
 
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B Lee
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JosefK wrote:
otteralf wrote:
Also, the rulebook is pretty good about pointing out whenever purification tokens come into play (at least in the base game rules), so it seems strange that the outbreak rules only mention them with regard to the adjacent cities.

This makes sense to me. The outbreak rules ("Outbreaks" header under the "Infections" section) only discuss what to do when you know you have an outbreak. Once you start resolving an outbreak, you only care about using the purification tokens for the adjacent cities.

I meant the omission is strange if the tokens do prevent outbreaks. It would be an important thing to mention while explaining what to do when you have an outbreak. (Of course, it could just be something they missed when writing the rules.)
 
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Thomas Lajeunesse
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I've just sent a geekmail to both Matt Leacock and Jesús Torres Castro with the question (about the nurse's protection too). Let's wait and see if they can take some time to give us an official answer.
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Sam S
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Rainbow Snake wrote:
I like to think that the purification tokens and nurse's token have evolved from the quarantine specialist's ability which does prevent outbreaks...


This is what I think as well, and also seems to be the consensus for how you play the following very similar mechanic in Pandemic Legacy (minor Feb spoiler):

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quarantine tokens do get removed and prevent outbreaks.
 
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Justin V

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We have been playing it as that tokens prevent outbreaks even with 3 cubes.

The way the rules read, it talks about the infect step first. "To infect a city, place 1 disease cube matching its color onto the city. If there is a purification token in a region adjacent to the city, however, remove 1 purification token from an adjacent region instead of placing a cube."

It doesn't really say that a cube is added, then cancelled out with a purification token, only that removing a token prevents a cube from being added.

Then it goes on to explain what to do if a city has three cubes and you are meant to add another, "do not place a 4th cube".

I think this is the correct way as well as making the most sense thematically. Purifying water is the substitute for clearing disease cubes faster once a cure is found.

Edit: To be slightly more clear. A city is infected when its card is drawn from the deck. 1 cube is added or a purification token is removed. If an infected city has three cubes and would otherwise get a fourth then do not place a fourth cube, instead complete the outbreak instructions, adding cubes to adjacent cities, removing purification tokens if available, and resolve chain reaction outbreaks if applicable.
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Brad103
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I know I re-hatched the subject of purification tokens and outbreaks. As I stated before, the rules seem to me that the tokens only are removed for the cities surrounding the outbreak that would actually get physical cubes. But, I've always played opposite that, that the token prevents the outbreak all together. So I'm neutral on the subject overall, which is why I'm eager waiting and hoping for an official answer.
 
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Jimmy Bjorck
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Another important question.

Is it official that when a cube is added in a city; is it mandatory to spend a purification token, to prevent that cube being added, if one is in the adjacent region? Or can I choose whether or not to spend it?
 
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Thomas Lajeunesse
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Dekraa wrote:
Another important question.

Is it official that when a cube is added in a city; is it mandatory to spend a purification token, to prevent that cube being added, if one is in the adjacent region? Or can I choose whether or not to spend it?

For this one yes, it is officially mandatory. If there is pure water available, the population will use it, you have no control over that and cannot keep it for another time or city.
 
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