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Subject: [Minor Spoilers] - Rule 16-17 and Enmity rss

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Jamie Hall
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My group has a question about the rules surrounding Rule 16 and 17 and enmity. I am sorry if this has already been asked but it is hard to find anything with all the spoilers and veiled talk to avoid spoiling things.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

First quoting from the book.

Under rule 17 for successful ship raids:

If you succeed in the raid, you may apply 1 damage to the defending flagship or plunder 1 item from the defending flagship's hold for each success rolled. Place one enmity token in the defending player's At War With section for each damage or plunder taken, unless the raid was in a region you control, in which case place exactly one enmity token.

Then under 'Running out of Enmity':

If an action would require more enmity tokens than you have available to spend, you may not take that action. If, through an unplanned course of events, you are required to spend an enmity token you do not have, instead lose 1 glory per enmity token you cannot spend.



So the question is what happens if I only have one enmity token left and I raid an opponents ship, scoring 5 successes?

a. Do I do all the damage and place my 1 enmity token but lose 4 glory?

b. Can I chose to only do 1 damage and only place 1 enmity?

c. Can I even choose to do more than 1 damage since I can't place the enmity?

d. Or can I not even attack in the first place since I will likely not have enough enmity?

This is pretty important because it ended our last game with one player doing this and potentially sinking a ship but he only had 1 enmity. We aren't sure if he can even do that. It would have given him the milestone The Seas Embrace.


Thanks for any clarifications that you guys can offer.
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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HitomiKojiru wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

a. Do I do all the damage and place my 1 enmity token but lose 4 glory?

b. Can I chose to only do 1 damage and only place 1 enmity?

c. Can I even choose to do more than 1 damage since I can't place the enmity?

d. Or can I not even attack in the first place since I will likely not have enough enmity?



Spoiler (click to reveal)

a. No. This rule is there only if some event, like in the Captain's Booke, would force you to spend enmity you don't have.

b. Yes. The rule says "for each success, you may deal 1 damage or plunder one good". You can forego successes. In fact there's a bit of a controversy regarding possibly deciding to deal 0 damage and just take the raid glory, which I believe was ruled to not be allowed. You need to do something with your raid to score the glory, though you could (for reasons I can't fathom) decide not to apply any damage at all and forego the glory too.

c. Nope.

d. You can attack as long as you have at least 1 enmity.
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Gary G
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Emphasis on 'may'.

If you only have 1 enmity attacking someone ship.
-You 'may' or 'may not' use it to give 1 damage or take 1 good.
-Then place the 1 enmity on opponents At War section.

-Also may have been a Developer comment on Raiding a Province 'only' not sure, but if you neither do damage or plunder you don't get the glory for a successful raid.
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j n
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
The above are correct but also note that if that ship is in a region you control (such as your home harbor) you can do all the damage you want with only 1 enmity token.

(You quoted this in your rules section, so I assume you got that, but just being thorough)
 
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Mike
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Spoiler (click to reveal)

The "may" is what sticks with me too, but for the opposite reason.
You 'may' or 'may not' use your success dice to give damage. Then you give enmity for each success (or lose glory if you don't have enough).
You are not spending enmity tokens when you do the raid/attack, you are spending the success dice.

I would see this in that the enmity is a result of the successful raid, not the currency of raids.

Also, and not the point of this thread, but from what I've been reading, the replies above are both wrong about the "choosing to deal no damage, get no glory" issue. I could have out of date information, but the last official reply from the developers which I saw was:

Quote:
Q: What happens if you "succeed" at raiding a province (ie, you have 1+ successes and don't sink) but don't plunder (for example, the target has upgraded fields, so there is no 1-success plunder option). In that case, I assume you get nothing, but do you still place enmity, and if so, where? Do you still get glory? And if you roll too few successes to plunder the thing you really wanted, can you choose not to plunder something with a lower value (so that you can save enmity tokens, perhaps?

A: In that case you would be successful, so you would get the glory. No plunder means you don't place enmity. Yes, you're allowed to decide not to place any tokens and take no plunder (you've basically wasted a turn).


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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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inconsiderate wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

You 'may' or 'may not' use your success dice to give damage. Then you give enmity for each success (or lose glory if you don't have enough).
You are not spending enmity tokens when you do the raid/attack, you are spending the success dice.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
That is not correct. The rule specifically says "for each damage or good plundered", not success. For instance, the Cannoneer deals one extra damage per success allocated to damage. So if using the Cannoneer, rolling a single success and allocating it to damage the ship would deal 2 damage, and cost you 2 enmity.
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Jackson Rodriguez
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
inconsiderate wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

You 'may' or 'may not' use your success dice to give damage. Then you give enmity for each success (or lose glory if you don't have enough).
You are not spending enmity tokens when you do the raid/attack, you are spending the success dice.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
That is not correct. The rule specifically says "for each damage or good plundered", not success. For instance, the Cannoneer deals one extra damage per success allocated to damage. So if using the Cannoneer, rolling a single success and allocating it to damage the ship would deal 2 damage, and cost you 2 enmity.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
I believe the Cannoneer specifically states that enmity is given based on successes, not damage.
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Mike
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jayarsea wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:
inconsiderate wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

You 'may' or 'may not' use your success dice to give damage. Then you give enmity for each success (or lose glory if you don't have enough).
You are not spending enmity tokens when you do the raid/attack, you are spending the success dice.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
That is not correct. The rule specifically says "for each damage or good plundered", not success. For instance, the Cannoneer deals one extra damage per success allocated to damage. So if using the Cannoneer, rolling a single success and allocating it to damage the ship would deal 2 damage, and cost you 2 enmity.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
I believe the Cannoneer specifically states that enmity is given based on successes, not damage.


Spoiler (click to reveal)

Whether it states that or not is actually irrelevant, to this discussion.


"The rule specifically says "for each damage or good plundered", not success."

If that's the rule, then you are right about my statement "Then you give enmity for each success (or lose glory if you don't have enough)." which is just semantic over intent. The rest of my original statement still stands.

Edit: I should clarify that I know you give enmity for each point of damage, not for each success. It's semantic and I don't want to argue that. I chose those words for ease of understanding flow, not for rules purposes, and I should have chosen different language.

 
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Gary G
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Believe that 'wasted a turn' reply was from JR and then got word after the fact from Daviau that if you 'can' place enmity anywhere but 'choose' not to, you don't get the glory for the raid.
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Becq
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My take:

You can attempt a raid regardless of your enmity (but raiding without "enough" enmity would be a waste, based on further discussion below).

Assuming your raid is successful (at least one success, and your ship survives), you make your plunder selection. You may only make a plunder selection that fits your successes AND your enmity. (You can't choose an option that you don't have enough enmity to cover.)

If you are choose not to plunder, or are unable to plunder (insufficient successes or plunder), then per a clarification from the developers, your raid is considered a failure for purposes of earning glory (you must plunder to earn glory).

So, regarding the rule cited above,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
your "plunder options" basically involve inflicting some amount of damage and stealing some amount of stuff. You can allocate your successes any way you choose among those options, and you can choose not to allocate some or all of those options. But you are limited by your enmity, and you must have plundered *something* (at least one damage inflicted or one thing stolen) in order to gain glory.


I think that if you have some reason to be able to place fewer enmity tokens than normal, you can raid without having any enmity tokens, and then choose a plunder option that would require no tokens to be placed. As long as you plunder, you gain glory even if no enmity was placed.

So for the OP, I believe the answers are:
a) No, you can't choose plunder that you don't have enmity to cover
b) Yes, you may opt to plunder less than you are entitled
c) See (a)
d) You can attack regardless of enmity, but your plunder options are limited, and you will score no glory if you fail to plunder.
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Darren Greenberg
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Adding on to this since my question is semi-related: when choosing to deal damage after a ship-to-ship raid, is it done success by success, i.e. choose 1 damage, see if it's enough to sink the ship, then continue with each successive success, or does all damage need to be determined at once, before drawing cards?
 
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j n
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Do it point by point.
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Darren Nakamura
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Really? I didn't think there were any damage cards that counted as extra damage. Maybe I just haven't seen them yet/they're still locked away.
 
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Joshua Addington
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Dexter345 wrote:
Really? I didn't think there were any damage cards that counted as extra damage. Maybe I just haven't seen them yet/they're still locked away.

What is this responding to?
 
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Darren Nakamura
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The two posts directly above mine. I didn't think it mattered which damage cards are drawn if your goal is to sink a ship. So we've just determined/applied all damage all at once.
 
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j n
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Dexter345 wrote:
The two posts directly above mine. I didn't think it mattered which damage cards are drawn if your goal is to sink a ship. So we've just determine/applied all damage all at once.


When it starts mattering, it will probably be obvious.
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Joshua Addington
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Dexter345 wrote:
The two posts directly above mine. I didn't think it mattered which damage cards are drawn if your goal is to sink a ship. So we've just determine/applied all damage all at once.

Your goal might not always be to sink a ship. Sometimes you might be able to give it damage that makes it useless enough without having to sink it.
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