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Subject: Spawn Enemy at Location w/ Multiple Investigators. rss

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Just want to make sure we're playing this right. The instruction for enemies is:

"When an enemy card is drawn by an investigator, that
investigator must spawn it following any spawn direction
the card bears (see “Spawn” on page 19). If the
encountered enemy has no spawn direction, the enemy
spawns engaged with the investigator encountering the
card and is placed in that investigator’s threat area."

If you draw a Spawn enemy that happens to be spawning at a location where you are with another investigator, can you choose to have it engage with the other investigator?
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Chris G
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No it spawns with the person who drew it in that case.
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I have been playing this as Chris specified, but I cannot for the life of me point to an entry in the rulebook which supports it.

If (and this is a huuuge IF), if you consider a 'spawn direction' (or 'spawn instruction') as something which exists because you have to place it elsewhere, then it works --
--you're in the Cellar and you draw an Attic monster -- the Attic monster doesn't follow normal rules because it has to spawn in a different place: it follows a Spawn Direction.
--you're in the Cellar and you draw a Cellar monster, in this case you don't alter anything from typical rules, it spawns in the same location -- it does not follow a Spawn Direction (a non-typical behaviour).

But there's nothing I'm aware of which defines 'Spawn Direction' or 'Spawn Instruction' like that. It's just an invention of my brain, a guideless, natural interpretation, that makes the card behave as I expect.

I think you have a point. The rules as offered do seem to suggest that cards with 'Spawn:____' don't have to follow the typical "you drew it, you take it" rule.


I do still think that Spawn:___ enemies drawn in the Mythos phase who are spawning in the room you're in should engage with you -- but it appears that the breakdown on p24 doesn't account for that specific circumstance. All that's said is 'Spawn enemies are placed at the location on the card' and 'non-Spawn enemies engage with the investigator who drew them'.
 
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kryyst wrote:
No it spawns with the person who drew it in that case.

Where does that ruling come from? I couldn't find anything in the rules to support it even though it does feel fine to me either way.
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Tom Scutt
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Learn to Play guide, bottom of pg. 13:

When an enemy card is drawn, that enemy spawns engaged with the investigator who drew the card, unless it has a "Spawn -" instruction.
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Steerpike wrote:
Learn to Play guide, bottom of pg. 13:

When an enemy card is drawn, that enemy spawns engaged with the investigator who drew the card, unless it has a "Spawn -" instruction.

So what happens if a card is drawn when it does have a Spawn-instruction, say an Icy Ghoul drawn in the Cellar?
 
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Noaloha wrote:
Steerpike wrote:
Learn to Play guide, bottom of pg. 13:

When an enemy card is drawn, that enemy spawns engaged with the investigator who drew the card, unless it has a "Spawn -" instruction.

So what happens if a card is drawn when it does have a Spawn-instruction, say an Icy Ghoul drawn in the Cellar?


if cellar isnt in game discard the enemy.

if cellar is in game it spawn in cellar, and...
...if there is only one investigator in cellar, so enghage him/her.
...if more investigators are in cellar, include investigator who draws the card engage him/her.
...if more investigators are in cellar, but not the investigator who draws it, then the leader choose which investigator in cellar will be engaged.
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impish1234 wrote:

...if more investigators are in cellar, include investigator who draws the card engage him/her.


But why? Where is the instruction to do this? I promise I'm not trying be a dick or petty or anything, but I believe that the whole point of the opening post is that the Rules Reference doesn't ever state that Spawn-instruction enemies have to engage with the investigator that drew them (as all other enemies do).

Quote:
If the card is an enemy, spawn it following any spawn
instruction the card bears. (A spawn instruction is any text
bearing a “spawn” precursor.) If the encountered enemy
has no spawn instruction, the enemy spawns engaged with
the investigator encountering the card and is placed in that
investigator’s threat area.

Rules Ref, p24. Note how the entirety of the rules underlined don't instruct what you must do with, say, the Icy Ghoul. The Icy Ghoul 100% does have a 'spawn instruction', right? Spawn instruction is defined right there as 'any text bearing a “spawn” precursor.'


Daisy and Skids are in the Cellar. Daisy draws the Icy Ghoul. It spawns, according to the text on the card, at the Cellar. As far as I can tell (though this is not how I've been playing it up to now), the lead investigator gets to choose who the Icy Ghoul must engage.
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Noaloha wrote:
Daisy and Skids are in the Cellar. Daisy draws the Icy Ghoul. It spawns, according to the text on the card, at the Cellar. As far as I can tell (though this is not how I've been playing it up to now), the lead investigator gets to choose who the Icy Ghoul must engage.


This is correct. Spawn instructions are the default way a monster spawns, engaging with the Investigator who drew it is the exception.

From the rules reference, under Enemy Engagement:
For example, a ready unengaged enemy immediately engages if:
It spawns at the same location as an investigator

And we know if there are multiple choices the lead investigator chooses. The only time this may change is if the enemy also has prey text.
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Chris Franka
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It seems a little disjointed that monster A who spawns in the cellar with two investigators would go to the person who drew it, while monster B who also spawns in the cellar with two investigators could go to *anybody* simply because its card tells it to spawn in the cellar...where it was going to spawn anyway.

This would seem to confer an advantage to the investigators that goes against the spirit of the game. But I have to agree that the rules support this interpretation. The way they are written, any card with a Spawn rule is treated as an exception to the "engage the investigator that drew it" rule.

I still wouldn't mind clarification in the FAQ or from someone who emails FFG just to be certain.
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Yeah, this entire question has been a huge surprise to me.

I've been treating the encounter deck as having this characteristic of "you drew it, you deal with it" outside of exceptions where an enemy spawns elsewhere. So much so that I never questioned that a spawn:__ enemy placed on my location might not automatically follow that same flavour.

I don't know if it's an errata, an omission of a single extra clause ("If the encountered enemy has no spawn direction, or if an enemy with a spawn direction spawns at the same location as the investigator who drew it, the enemy spawns engaged with the investigator encountering the card...."), or if it's behaviour as intended.

I suppose for theme, you might look at non-spawn:___ enemies as enemies who *pounce* on you, take you by surprise -- that is your encounter. Whereas there is nothing sudden with spawn:___ enemies, they reveal themself slowly, crawling out of the dirt or emerging eerily from the shadows -- in that sense, the enemy arrives at the location without an investigator-directed intent.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is one of the most commonly missed rules. There is an intuitiveness to it that is lacking.
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Jim . K
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Soooo..just to confirm.. If I draw a spawned enemy, such as the ice ghoul, and I'm already in the cellar, (the spawn destination), but I'm there with ANOTHER investigator, the lead investigator decides who it engages with, right?
 
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JimBGG wrote:
Soooo..just to confirm.. If I draw a spawned enemy, such as the ice ghoul, and I'm already in the cellar, (the spawn destination), but I'm there with ANOTHER investigator, the lead investigator decides who it engages with, right?

That seems to be the case as specified in the rules, yeah. You essentially use regular engagement rules. The 'encounter deck engagement' rule doesn't appear to apply to any enemy with a spawn instruction.
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JimBGG wrote:
Soooo..just to confirm.. If I draw a spawned enemy, such as the ice ghoul, and I'm already in the cellar, (the spawn destination), but I'm there with ANOTHER investigator, the lead investigator decides who it engages with, right?

Yes, this is my understanding of the rules as written. Having read the relevant sections again, I believe the statement above that "Spawn instructions are the default way a monster spawns" is the right way to look at it, based on the rule I quoted at the top. As many have noted, this does feel counter to the expectations of many (but see bigtex's point for contra) but I just don't see any text supporting the interpretation that I was originally playing by, which is that the Monster goes to the person who drew it, so will be playing by this rule. I'll email FFG to double check though.
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Chris G
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If you draw an enemy card during the mythos phase and it spawns in the area of the investigator that drew it, it engages that investigator. If you draw an enemy because of another event that's when the lead investigator gets to choose who it engages with if there are multiple valid targets.
 
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kryyst wrote:
If you draw an enemy card during the mythos phase and it spawns in the area of the investigator that drew it, it engages that investigator.

With respect, I think we've reached a point in the discussion where a statement like this needs a direct rules quote backing it up.
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B.D. Flory
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A spawning enemy engages with the investigator who drew it if possible. The "unless" case is saying that the enemy doesn't engage with the investigator if spawn makes it appear at amother location, because the rules for "spawn" explicitly override the normal spawning location.

They don't override the engagement rule, however, so if the enemy's locatiom doesn't make it impossible by placing in a different location, engagement proceeds as normal -- so the investigator who drew it gets engaged.
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Found it! laugh
*edit: (spoilers: i didn't find it)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Rules Ref, p10
Quote:
Enemy Cards
Enemies represent villains, cultists, ne’er-do-wells,
terrible monsters, and unfathomable entities from
alternate dimensions or the cosmos beyond.

When an enemy card is drawn by an investigator, that
investigator must spawn it following any spawn direction
the card bears (see “Spawn” on page 19). If the
encountered enemy has no spawn direction, the enemy
spawns engaged with the investigator encountering the
card and is placed in that investigator’s threat area.


See “1.4 Each investigator draws 1 encounter card” on page 24.

* A ready, unengaged enemy engages any time
it is at the same location as an investigator (see
“Enemy Engagement” on page 10).
* If an investigator is engaged with a ready enemy and takes
an action other than to fght, to evade, or to activate a
parley or resign ability, that enemy makes an atack of
opportunity (see “Atack of Opportunity” on page 5).
* Enemies with the hunter keyword move during the
Enemy Phase (see “III. Enemy phase” on page 25).
* Engaged enemies atack during the Enemy Phase
(see “III. Enemy phase” on page 25).


Okay. Phew.


Genuinely thought I'd found an entry in the RR which supported the 'normal' interpretation there. Ha, I again glossed over "If the encountered enemy has no spawn direction..." And we've established that, say, an Icy Ghoul does have spawn direction (instruction). Jeez, me.
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bd flory wrote:
A spawning enemy engages with the investigator who drew it if possible. The "unless" case is saying that the enemy doesn't engage with the investigator if spawn makes it appear at amother location, because the rules for "spawn" explicitly override the normal spawning location.

They don't override the engagement rule, however, so if the enemy's locatiom doesn't make it impossible by placing in a different location, engagement proceeds as normal -- so the investigator who drew it gets engaged.

Every rule I've seen and quotes would support that you check whether an enemy has Spawn first before just assigning it to the drawing Investigator, and the mere fact that an enemy's Spawn happens to be in a location with the current Investigator doesn't mean you disregard Spawn rules. So it's been said in various places here, but just to walk through my progression:

-Enemy Cards (RR 10): "When an enemy card is drawn by an investigator, that investigator must spawn it following any spawn direction the card bears [note the lack of any instruction that the investigator can ignore the spawn direction if she happens to be in the same location as the enemy]. If the encountered enemy has no spawn direction, the enemy spawns engaged with the investigator encountering the card and is placed in that investigator’s threat area [note that the "engage with investigator encountering the card" that some treat as default only triggers "if the encountered enemy has no spawn direction]."

-Spawn (RR 19): "An enemy’s spawn instruction resolves as the enemy enters play, regardless of how it entered play."

-Enemy Engagement (RR 10): "Any time a ready unengaged enemy is at the same location as an investigator, it engages that investigator, and is placed in that investigator’s threat area. If there are multiple investigators at the same location as a ready unengaged enemy, follow the enemy’s prey instructions to determine which investigator is engaged....For example, a ready unengaged enemy immediately engages if:
=It spawns at the same location as an investigator."

-Lead Investigator (RR 14): "If there are ever multiple valid options for a choice or decision that must be made (for example, a hunter enemy that could move in two different directions), the lead investigator is the final arbiter in choosing among those options."

Happy to play it the way I was originally playing it (draw it and engage with drawing investigator), but I think given the above I'd need some official confirmation to comfortably do so.


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B.D. Flory
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I'm aware of all of that. What I'm saying is that the spawn rules don't direct you to ignore the normal rules for how the drawn encounter card engages, the spawn rules only address its location.

The "unless" case under the rules for drawing an enemy address the possibility of what happens when the spawn instructions place the enemy at a different location.

There's also nothing that indicates enemies enter play unengaged, so they may never be "ready, unengaged enemies." So there may never be a choic3 to be made per the text you quoted. But that's a side point.

Regardless, as someone said above, I don't think it's clear enough from the rrg to resolve the dispute. So as loathe as I am to invoke it, if a player is at all uncertain, I suggest the grim rule to resolve the.ambiguity until we have something official. To me, that would mean engage the enemy with the inv3stigator who drew it because the worse case is the players having no choice.

If you're sure.of your interpretation, by all means, it's your table.
 
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bd flory wrote:
I'm aware of all of that. What I'm saying is that the spawn rules don't direct you to ignore the normal rules for how the drawn encounter card engages, the spawn rules only address its location.

The "unless" case under the rules for drawing an enemy address the possibility of what happens when the spawn instructions place the enemy at a different location.

And what I'm saying is that just spawning with the investigator regardless of the fact that the card says "spawn" is not the "normal" rule, as I think is dictated by the references above.

Quote:
There's also nothing that indicates enemies enter play unengaged, so they may never be "ready, unengaged enemies." So there may never be a choic3 to be made per the text you quoted. But that's a side point.

Not sure about this. Per what I quoted above, a spawning enemy enters play "ready, unengaged," and then enters an engaged state immediately. The topic of this thread is under what rules that engagement happens. Ref: "For example, a ready unengaged enemy immediately engages if:
=It spawns at the same location as an investigator"

Quote:
If you're sure.of your interpretation, by all means, it's your table. :)

I'm not! But only because I feel your interpretation is the more intuitive one (which is why I was scouring the rules for clear support), not because I've found any strong support for it. May be a case for Grim Rule; I could certainly live with that too.
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bd flory wrote:

There's also nothing that indicates enemies enter play unengaged, so they may never be "ready, unengaged enemies."


When Spawn instructions place Enemies in an empty location they are definitely ready, unengaged enemies. That would suggest that Spawning does not create Engagement by itself, it takes an Investigator for the Enemy to Engage with.
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I feel some if the very recent responses citing rules are not considering the issue in hand. That being, what happens to an enemy that spawns in a specific location, where there are multiple investigators. Most of the examples given are covering what happens when the investigator is alone, (i think).

My understanding is, whether an enemy has spawned to a named location or not, if there are multiple investigators present, then the lead investigator decides who yhe enemy engages with,regardless of who drew the card from the encounter deck.
 
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B.D. Flory
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Esgaldil wrote:
bd flory wrote:

There's also nothing that indicates enemies enter play unengaged, so they may never be "ready, unengaged enemies."


When Spawn instructions place Enemies in an empty location they are definitely ready, unengaged enemies. That would suggest that Spawning does not create Engagement by itself, it takes an Investigator for the Enemy to Engage with.


Spawn places enemies in a location. It doesn't address engagement at all.

An enemy that enters play in the cellar unengaged has entered play at the same locatiom as an enemy who enters play in the cellar engaged.

Cultists enter play unengaged because there's no one to engage with where spawn placed them, not because spawn directly dictates they enter play unengaged.

 
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JimBGG wrote:

My understanding is, whether an enemy has spawned to a named location or not, if there are multiple investigators present, then the lead investigator decides who yhe enemy engages with,regardless of who drew the card from the encounter deck.


This is not correct, and not (thus far) in debate. RRG is very clear that if an enemy doesn't have spawn when it's drawn from the encounter deck, it enters play engaged with the investigator who drew it. See rrg 24, under mythos phase.
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