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Subject: Supporting the other player with a skill card rss

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Oscar Lamelas Damas
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Is the text in a skill card applied if the card is played to support a skill test of the other player?

If yes, who gets the benefit??

thanks!
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Yury M
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Yes, it's applied.

If the skill card affects the outcome of the test (eg "Discover 1 additional clue" or "That attack deals +1 damage"), then the investigator performing the test is considered the one who triggered it. Otherwise, the investigator who committed the card gets the benefit.

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mplain
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Vicious Blow says "That attack deals +1 damage", which modifies the amount of damage the attack does (it does not create another instance of the "deal damage" game event).

Deduction says "Discover 1 additional clue", which modifies the number of clues the investigating player discovers (it does not create another instance of the "discover a clue" game event).

Fearless says "Heal 1 damage", which is special effect that does not modify the base effect but applies on top of it. This effect applies to the player that committed the skill card, not the player that performed the skill test.

Guts, Perception, Overpower, and Manual Dexterity say "Draw 1 card", which is special effect that does not modify the base effect but applies on top of it. This effect applies to the player that committed the skill card, not the player that performed the skill test.

Double or Nothing says "Resolve the effects twice", i.e. resolve the effects of the successful test a second time, in exactly the same manner as they were resolved the first time.
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Kelly N.
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Wait, what?

I thought only icons were committed to a skill test by another player. Please tell me where it says the card abilities apply as well.
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mplain
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Quote:
http://arkhamdb.com/rules#Skill_Cards
If a skill card is committed to a skill test, its ability may be used during the resolution of that skill test, as specified on the card.

Doesn't say anything about working only for your tests, so it works for your friends' tests as well.
 
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Ben Bosmans
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Holes in the rules to put an elephant through really...

So a clue is for the investigator while another benifit is for the guy giving a card !?!

Not that it is important as it is mostly a solo game anyway, but I don't see any logic in these answers.

 
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Richard
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This rule book is terrible.

With that out of the way, this is illuminating. One thing I always miss is it appears that cards of the type Skills have text that resolve according to their text when they are committed to a skill test. Non-skill cards, however, may be committed to a skill test but only their icons are used in this case; their text is only used when they have been played (and then their icons are no longer used).
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MC Shudde M'ell
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sabbat00 wrote:
Wait, what?

I thought only icons were committed to a skill test by another player. Please tell me where it says the card abilities apply as well.


Skill Cards, RR, p. 18
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Chris Franka
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sabbat00 wrote:
Wait, what?

I thought only icons were committed to a skill test by another player. Please tell me where it says the card abilities apply as well.


I think you're confusing "Skill Card" and "Skill Test." The skill test is what prompts you to contribute a card, whether it is you or someone else doing the test.

Up in the top left, under the card cost, it says the Type of the card. It can be "Asset," "Skill," "Event," etc.

Any card can be contributed for its icons but the text effects don't resolve.

A card of the "Skill" type could be contributed instead. In this case, you can choose the icons OR the text, but not both.

The icons always benefit the person performing the test...because they can't really benefit anyone else.

The text (if you choose to play a card for its text instead of its icons) may benefit either the person doing the test OR the person playing the card, depending on what the text actually states. Remember in this case, since you're playing a card for its TEXT power, the ICONS do not get added to the test. It's TEXT or ICONS. ICONS or TEXT. Not both. But if it is TEXT, then the benefit can go to the card player or the test taker depending on what the text says.

IF I'M WRONG, though...I sure hope someone can correct me. I think the above is right. But I'm open to the idea that I've misread things too.

EDIT: Now I think I'm wrong. I think you DO get both icons and the effect on the skill card.

I'm glad this thread is here. It made me read the rules AGAIN, and I don't see anywhere where it states that you only get icons OR the text. I thought that was in there somewhere, but I guess not. But I also see that you CAN'T contribute a skill card whose icons don't match the skill being tested, even if you want the text effect.
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Richard
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bigtex01 wrote:
EDIT: Now I think I'm wrong. I think you DO get both icons and the effect on the skill card.

I'm glad this thread is here. It made me read the rules AGAIN, and I don't see anywhere where it states that you only get icons OR the text. I thought that was in there somewhere, but I guess not.


Correct. Blame the terrible rulebook. Did we mention it was terrible?

I believe the issue comes from how it's explained in the Learn to Play book where it talks about committing cards to a Skill Test but it doesn't adequately discuss the differences in cards. Skill cards are really only used for this purpose so it makes since you'd get both the icons and the text. Other cards like Assets may also be committed from your hand, and it is these that you only get their icons for the test. Once you play an Asset card to your character then its icon goes away and its text takes over.
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Scott Hill
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The rule books are not "terrible".

Quote:
Some skill cards have an ability that resolves upon the completion of a skill test, if the card is committed to that test.


Quote:
Skill cards are not played. For their abilities and
icons to be used, these cards must be committed to a skill test from a player's hand.


Both quotes come from the Learn to Play book.

What is unclear?
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Richard
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I didn't say that stuff isn't there, but of all the games I've learned to play this one is up there on how much it's frustrated me by making simple actions very muddy and unclear.

I'm glad you've found it simple to learn but I did not. Nothing much to argue on, I'm afraid.
 
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Scott Hill
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I understand.

However if the rule books were as terrible as some people keep on saying they are then everyone would have a hard time understanding the game, and no-one would be able to provide clear quotes from the rules, like those above.

Could they be better? Yes, of course they could. All rule books could be better.

It's a complex game. And so the rules are complex. Given the level of complexity involved the rule books, in my opinion, do a very good job of presenting and explaining that complexity in a clear and concise manner.
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Kelly N.
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I could be wrong, but I betcha if FFG ever gets off their butts and does an official FAQ, we'll hear that only icons from another player's hand counts toward skill tests.

It just mechanically doesn't make sense to me that your skill ability gets to be shared with another player.

We'll see.
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Scott Hill
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sabbat00 wrote:
It just mechanically doesn't make sense to me that your skill ability gets to be shared with another player.

Why?
 
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Kelly N.
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Because it is your skill.

Icons are just icons. I get the feeling that skill test modifiers are simply an icon count. I have never believed that a skill ability would have anything to do with a partner player offering an icon to assist with your chaos bag chances.
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Scott Hill
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sabbat00 wrote:
Because it is your skill.

Well, that's a thematic argument, not a mechanical one, so I'll address it thematically.

You can only commit cards to assist other investigators in their skill tests if you are in the same location as them - i.e, you are literally helping them, and lending them your skills, physically.

As for your mechanical argument:
sabbat00 wrote:
Icons are just icons. I get the feeling that skill test modifiers are simply an icon count. I have never believed that a skill ability would have anything to do with a partner player offering an icon to assist with your chaos bag chances.


The rules clearly state the following:
Quote:
Some skill cards have an ability that resolves upon the completion of a skill test, if the card is committed to that test.


So, if you commit a Skill card to assist another investigator then that Skill card's text resolves upon completion of that skill test.

That is how the rules state it works, mechanically.
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Kelly N.
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
sabbat00 wrote:
Because it is your skill.

Well, that's a thematic argument, not a mechanical one, so I'll address it thematically.

You can only commit cards to assist other investigators in their skill tests if you are in the same location as them - i.e, you are literally helping them, and lending them your skills, physically.

As for your mechanical argument:
sabbat00 wrote:
Icons are just icons. I get the feeling that skill test modifiers are simply an icon count. I have never believed that a skill ability would have anything to do with a partner player offering an icon to assist with your chaos bag chances.


The rules clearly state the following:
Quote:
Some skill cards have an ability that resolves upon the completion of a skill test, if the card is committed to that test.


So, if you commit a Skill card to assist another investigator then that Skill card's text resolves upon completion of that skill test.

That is how the rules state it works, mechanically.


You make very good sense. Maybe I'm assuming too much in my interpretation. Thus far I have not played it that way. Maybe if I would, the game would be somewhat easier for me. I haven't done well so far.
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mplain
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I think that the main problem here is that the word "additional" is not defined as modifying the original value, not adding something on top of it.

That, and the entry for "You/Your" could be more comprehensive.
 
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Ben Bosmans
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The only really good original rule book coming out of FFG over the last 3 years was Eldritch Horror.

The play book and reference guide made absolute sense. You could see it was worked on for years after the disaster of the first edition book of AH.

But ...

Ever since we got these reference books that actually contradict many things of the initial play book and vice versa.

As to the initial question, it is still not clear what exactly counts as a benifit for whom, but I just add the icons to the test of the ONE card a supporting character can play WHEN in the same location.

Since that supporting character takes in no way his turn DURING the turn of the initial investigator the cards - that just helps this investigation of that initial character - can not benifit the supporting character.

Of course this and around a dozen other other rules are not clear at all atm ... and since this is just the start of the "basic" game, this game risks to have these vague questions and answers all over the place in the next expansions.

-----

Certainly with the story based content, you can bet a LOT of playing sessions will be wrongly done with this kind of holes in the rules and specific adventure settings that vary from story to story.
 
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Christian Kløve
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Ben_Bos wrote:
Ever since we got these reference books that actually contradict many things of the initial play book and vice versa.


Could you provide examples of this? I am asking, because I have not found any contradictions, and I am interested in knowing where to be aware of these.

Thanks.
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Ben Bosmans
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Well this thread alone showed already how vague the reference book and the learn to play book interact with each other... concerning the skill adding.

Everyone puts in his own thoughts and interpretations.

So how about a solution to this one before I delve into the dubious "obligated" movement questions of ... tapped creatures mentioned in another thread...

This consistent problem arises in most rule books published by FFG in the last 2.5 years and I think it is due to the seperate Reference books.

But it is not because it worked ONCE in Eldritch Horror that it has to be applied in all their games.

------

In general of course FFG games always had messy rule books in their first edition. Elder Sign, Arkham Horror, Star Wars, Lotr, they all had endless FAQ and versions of rule sets with pages of FAQ.

In this particular case of the AH LCG it risks to be an ever going never ending problem due to the nature of this adventure story telling game itself.




 
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Christian Kløve
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Ben_Bos wrote:
Well this thread alone showed already how vague the reference book and the learn to play book interact with each other... concerning the skill adding.

Everyone puts in his own thoughts and interpretations.

So how about a solution to this onr before I delve into the dubious "obligated" movement questions of ... tapped creatures mentioned in another thread...






The discussion in this thread does not show, that the Learn to Play and Rules References contradict each other. It shows that this is a complex game, and players need to read the rules carefully and not jump to conclusions.

Can you provide a link to the other thread? I am not sure, which discussion, you are referring to.
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Ben Bosmans
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I am sure you can find it easely yourself in your magnificent effort to defend these kind of massive FAQ's found in every rule book published by FFG.

And don't pose ridiculous questions before you can give a definitive answer to the question posed in this thread alone.

So what's up ? Do cards played by another character benifit the original chatacter alone or does the supporting character gets the text benifit, ... while his character is not even in turn....

The question was asked and nobody found the answers...
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Christian Kløve
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Ben_Bos wrote:
I am sure you can find it easely yourself in your magnificent effort to defend these kind of massive FAQ's found in every rule book published by FFG.



I am not defending every game made by FFG. I might be defending AH:tcg, but honestly it's because I don't have the same issues that you describe, and I would like to know if there are issues, that needs to be addressed and I would like to help, if I can.

You stated that there were contradictions. I am merely asking, where?
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