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Eclipse: Shadow of the Rift» Forums » Rules

Subject: Distortion/Evolution pool update during upkeep? rss

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William Hellström
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Rules wording on the pool update for Shapers (same for Octanis) is:

Quote:
Colony Ships can be used to change the tiles in the Distortion Pool at any time during your turn


This is opposed to Magellans power that states:

Quote:
At any time, may flip unused Colony Ships and receive one free Resource per Colony Ship


From the base game:

Quote:
UPKEEP PHASE / COLONY SHIPS / First, you may activate one or more of your remaining Colony Ships (see Colony Ships on page 8) and move Population Cubes to hexes.


Our gaming group have interpreted this the obvious way, that Shapers and Octanis can not use their ability in the upkeep phase, while Magellan can. I just wanted to be sure that this is rightly interpreted, as I think it have kind of a awkward feeling to it, maybe because we are used to the Magellan, more flexible, ability. Just seem a little unnecessary to rule powers based on colonyships different on this detailed level. How do you interpret the rules?
 
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Peter Bakija
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vesssla wrote:
I just wanted to be sure that this is rightly interpreted, as I think it have kind of a awkward feeling to it, maybe because we are used to the Magellan, more flexible, ability.


The Shapers and Octanis can use colony ships at any time during their turn to update their distortion or evolution pool (see: the part where is says "at any time during your turn").

They do not need to wait for the upkeep phase. They can do this during their upkeep phase (as that is part of their turn). They can do this at any time during their turn.
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William Hellström
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Ok. I haven't understood that the upkeep is considered "your turn". Thanks for very clear answer.
 
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William Hellström
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It could as well be noted for other players that also find this confusing that the wording "at any time on any of your turns" is the only clue there is that indicate that you can form a diplomatic relation during the Upkeep Phase. (Though you can not found an alliance (from ROTA expansion) because this can only be done "at any time during either player’s action in the Action Phase.")

We did strangely enough play this right..
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Peter Bakija
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vesssla wrote:
It could as well be noted for other players that also find this confusing that the wording "at any time on any of your turns" is the only clue there is that indicate that you can form a diplomatic relation during the Upkeep Phase.


Sure. You can form form Diplomatic Relations at any time during your turn, including during the Upkeep phase (as that is part of your turn). It will be rare that you'd *need* form Diplomatic Relations during the upkeep phase, as you could also do it at the end of the combat phase, after capturing new hexes, which is really the only situation I can think of where you would need to form Diplomatic Relations after the Actions Phase.

Quote:
(Though you can not found an alliance (from ROTA expansion) because this can only be done "at any time during either player’s action in the Action Phase.")


The sequence of forming and breaking Alliances is important (well, in theory at least), as it prevents players 1 and 2 from forming an alliance, breaking that alliance, forming a second alliance, breaking that alliance, and then forming the third alliance, using up all the Alliance tokens and freezing the other players in the game out of any Alliances. Which would be a theoretical possibility if not for the order in which Alliances are formed and broken.
 
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William Hellström
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bakija wrote:
It will be rare that you'd *need* form Diplomatic Relations during the upkeep phase


Yes maybe pretty rare that you are able to make relations during upkeep when you couldn't during actions. But often tactical as it keeps your opponent on his/her toes, as you might change your mind and attack instead. It also enables you to deny the ambassador and sabotage your opponents upkeep. Of course you chose to trade ambassadors during the Action Phase if this is not important for you.


bakija wrote:
The sequence of forming and breaking Alliances is important (well, in theory at least), as it prevents players 1 and 2 from forming an alliance, breaking that alliance, forming a second alliance, breaking that alliance, and then forming the third alliance, using up all the Alliance tokens and freezing the other players in the game out of any Alliances. Which would be a theoretical possibility if not for the order in which Alliances are formed and broken.


Sorry but why would you ever want to do that? To set you back 6 points just to prevent other players to form an alliance not only seems like a very bad idea, it also seem like something not worth minding when designing the game. Also, as the rulse are written they dont prevent a player from doing what you describe during his/her turn (at any time during the Action Phase).

I think the timing is important because of strategic reasons.
 
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Peter Bakija
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vesssla wrote:
Yes maybe pretty rare that you are able to make relations during upkeep when you couldn't during actions. But often tactical as it keeps your opponent on his/her toes, as you might change your mind and attack instead. It also enables you to deny the ambassador and sabotage your opponents upkeep. Of course you chose to trade ambassadors during the Action Phase if this is not important for you.


Sure. These are things you can certainly do, but the practical difference between setting up Diplomatic Relations at the end of the combat phase (after all combat is done and all hexes are taken or retaken or whatever) and setting up Diplomatic Relations during the upkeep phase is essentially nothing.

bakija wrote:
Sorry but why would you ever want to do that?


You probably wouldn't. It is a horrible idea. But it isn't impossible that someone might say "Huh. If I use up all the Alliance tokens, then no one else at the table will be able to have an Alliance, and me and my Alliance partner will have an advantage (being able to share hexes, etc.) that no one else will have that might outweigh the net -4VPs we have." and then try to use up all Alliance tokens to freeze everyone else at the table out of Alliance tokens.

The sequencing of when you can form and break up Alliances makes it a lot harder to do this (mostly the "you can only leave an Alliance on your turn" part). See this recent discussion:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1677697/some-problems-allia...

Quote:
To set you back 6 points just to prevent other players to form an alliance not only seems like a very bad idea, it also seem like something not worth minding when designing the game. Also, as the rules are written they dont prevent a player from doing what you describe during his/her turn (at any time during the Action Phase).


As you can only be part of one alliance at a time, and can only leave an alliance on your turn, it makes it very difficult to pull off, unless everyone at the table is conspiring to do it and willing to shoot themselves in the foot. Assuming it is just P1 and P2 trying to do this in, for example, a 4P game:

-P1: Form alliance 1 with P2. Break alliance 1 with P2. Can't form alliance 2 with P2, as P2 is still in alliance 1 until P2's turn.

-P2: Break alliance 1 with P1. Form alliance 2 with P1. If P2 now breaks alliance 2 with P1, P2 can't form alliance 3 with P1, as P1 is still in alliance 2 with P2 until P1's next turn.

-P3: Can form alliance 3 with P4 and they are now a net +3 VP ahead of alliance 2.
 
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