Recommend
10 
 Thumb up
 Hide
84 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

Abstract Games» Forums » General

Subject: Who on earth is rating more than 7200 games to a 1 during one month? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: smjj [+] ratings [+] ratings_episode_999,999 [+] [View All]
TPoG
Denmark
flag msg tools
ISBN: 1-85723-146-5
badge
Hmm...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I noticed that the rating for Superschaak recently dropped substantially. Usually, the rating was the average of my single rating

Now the rating is ~halved due to an additional 1 rating. It is of course ok if somebody played and loathed the game. However, that 1 is part of a cluster of more than 7200 1 ratings added by a single user during November 2016. What is going on?
Somebody evidently tried and disliked a lot of games (including a larger number of rare abstracts) during that month gulp.

I acknowledge that probably it is some sort of personal bookkeeping system. However, it significantly biases the ratings of games with only a few ratings - especially abstracts - such as Superschaak, a hand full of the large Shogi variants, and a number of chess variants just to mention a few.

Is there a method for carpet bombing low rates at BGG or do you have to painstakingly rate every game one at a time?
4 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You can see for yourself that the user is Smjj.

Long story short:

1. Officially users are free to rate however they like as long as they don't create multiple accounts to rate multiple times.

2. Admins are discussing this specific unusual situation and apparently contacting the user Smjj.

Search the BGG forums for "smjj" and you'll find many recent discussions about that user's ratings if you want more details.

E.g. see BGG Ratings for an example of many such threads.
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Allard
United States
Dover
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
mb
I was wondering about this as well. Wouldn't this require some sort of automation or bot in order to do this? And there are no comments and he only owns 50 games.

What would be the point of doing something like this?

JimA
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TPoG
Denmark
flag msg tools
ISBN: 1-85723-146-5
badge
Hmm...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for your comment Russ.
Somehow I missed those previous discussions.
No need to beat a dead horse here.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoffrey Burrell
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
I'm sure this person has never played all those games before so I'll ignore those ratings for now. Even though they hurt the average rating.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack of Clubs
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Always ignore all BGG ratings. They mean nothing.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TPoG
Denmark
flag msg tools
ISBN: 1-85723-146-5
badge
Hmm...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Always ignore all BGG ratings. They mean nothing.


Do not ignore the ratings of your carefully selected GeekBuddies.
I am a big fan of GeekBuddy analysis
22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
flag msg tools
designer
The overtext below is true.
badge
The overtext above is false.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe we could have a special designer geek badge - "I've been rated 1 by smjj" (Sleepers in my case)?
44 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
suPUR DUEper
United States
Villa Hills
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mrraow wrote:
Maybe we could have a special designer geek badge - "I've been rated 1 by smjj" (Sleepers in my case)?


And Sleepers is an awesome game!
2 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Bentley
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

I was wondering about that. One of my own favorite designs was rated a 1 by him and I was like "how can I like this game so much and this dude thinks it's a complete bust?"
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy Sterckx
Belgium
Vilvoorde
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
milomilo122 wrote:

I was wondering about that. One of my own favorite designs was rated a 1 by him and I was like "how can I like this game so much and this dude thinks it's a complete bust?"


The geek hotness list is full of games you'd have to pay me to play. People just have different tastes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FWIW Smjj is certainly not the only user to dish out large numbers of nonsensical 1 ratings. E.g. see https://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/Hoss%20Cartwri...

PS: For those who don't know, BGG supposedly has some secret algorithm which attempts to detect and ignore such goofy ratings when calculating game rankings.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TPoG
Denmark
flag msg tools
ISBN: 1-85723-146-5
badge
Hmm...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Much more pronounced: https://boardgamegeek.com/user/Odum
However, not as extreme as Smjj.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Bosmans
Belgium
Mechelen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think there should be another rating system. What are the weak points of the current system ?

1. Older games drop down on the list while still being very good games as such.

2. Games that have seperate and renewed versions climb much higher since most people voting for them already support the original game.
It is a cascading effect: those who didn't like the first version don't bother to rate it again, only the supporters do.

3. Games that are published massively when they are new and in the "hype" period gain in general much too high scores and these scores are not being adjusted by many users when they pass from one game to another new hype.

4. With all due respect, but many games are rated without being played extensively. I bet a good deal of games are rated ... by staring at the box ... even while still standing in the racks of a shop.

5. The current system promotes behaviour of the one the OP is talking about. I have seen DOZENS of ratings where "competitive" games within the same branche get very low points because another system is being promoted.

6. It is NOT a good indicator in how YOU view some games. I am pretty sure people who just followed these lists and buy "what resides in the top 50" will not be pleased when acquiring them all.


--- So what's the solution ?

1. I would grade in letters, from A to F and no longer list them with points.

2. I would seperate games that are older than 10 years with currently published games, which btw makes these games much more valuable.

I mean in NO way are the newer 120 wargames far superior than The Russian Campaign which is 40 years old, but these classics deserve their own rating system, again very neutral from A to F.

3. People could still vote with NUMBERS, but the way these games would be rated on the BGG website could be far more neutral with the letter scoring.

4. Very important: the WEIGHT of the scores should be directly related to the RECORDED plays of the gamer and even preferrably including a round up of the play itself. These tools exist at the moment already. Too many times I have seen games being destroyed by having zero plays, while the reviewer recorded 1000+ gaming sessions, but not of the game being "reviewed".

I don't say you can not rate a non played game, but the WEIGHT in your score system should be related to the number of playing sessions with a maximum of 4 times played and the minimum 0 times played. This way the games YOU didn't like and stopped playing after 1 trial don't put people in doubt who MIGHT like its mechanics.


Finally I appreciate that the rating system still allows a text entry. You MAY indeed even you MUST rate a game or system a 10 or a 1, but the possibility of expaining WHY should be retained. That's the good part of the current rating system btw.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Are you aware of the dangers foxes pose to you and
Sweden
flag msg tools
Help, I'm being held prisoner in an overtext typing facility! I don't have much time, they could find out at any m
badge
I'm that weirdo whose number of badges sold prior to yesterday Bail Organa is keeping track of
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
PS: For those who don't know, BGG supposedly has some secret algorithm which attempts to detect and ignore such goofy ratings when calculating game rankings.


There have been indications that the algorithm simply cuts off high and low votes for each game based on its standard deviation. I would be mildly surprised if there's a per-user element to the shill-busting in addition to the per-game element.

Fortunately, aggregated ratings mean little.

Ben_Bos wrote:
1. Older games drop down on the list while still being very good games as such.


There are others saying old games are kept afloat on the list by virtue of people not revisiting their ratings and dropping them as they obviously should. Who is right?

Ben_Bos wrote:
4. With all due respect, but many games are rated without being played extensively. I bet a good deal of games are rated ... by staring at the box ... even while still standing in the racks of a shop.


But you can't police this using another system.

Ben_Bos wrote:
6. It is NOT a good indicator in how YOU view some games. I am pretty sure people who just followed these lists and buy "what resides in the top 50" will not be pleased when acquiring them all.


Yup! So don't fret over them!

Ben_Bos wrote:
1. I would grade in letters, from A to F and no longer list them with points.


Letter ratings would be a nice pedagogical tool for demonstrating the pitfalls of rating averages, but we still want those averages, so I don't see this happening.

Ben_Bos wrote:
2. I would seperate games that are older than 10 years with currently published games, which btw makes these games much more valuable.


The cutoff point seems kinda arbitrary and... pointless?

Ben_Bos wrote:
3. People could still vote with NUMBERS, but the way these games would be rated on the BGG website could be far more neutral with the letter scoring.


That I don't follow.

Ben_Bos wrote:
4. Very important: the WEIGHT of the scores should be directly related to the RECORDED plays of the gamer and even preferrably including a round up of the play itself.


No, it shouldn't.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dieter Stein
Germany
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
I've learned there are some who actually "hate" abstract games. Maybe they're forced to play in some way...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
christian freeling
Netherlands
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmb
spielstein wrote:
I've learned there are some who actually "hate" abstract games. Maybe they're forced to play in some way...

Or abstract games messed up their lives … oh no, wait, that was what happened to me.
7 
 Thumb up
1.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
spielstein wrote:
I've learned there are some who actually "hate" abstract games. Maybe they're forced to play in some way...

In Smjj's case, he has rated all kinds of games 1, not just abstracts but euros, wargames, party games, ameritrash, card games, etc etc, whatever.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Harvey
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Has anyone been able to find any sort of pattern in how the games are being picked out and what order they're being accessed in? It could give us a clue to their identity and behaviour.

Are they a failed games designer out to gain revenge on the hobby that laughed at their efforts?

A person stung by constant failure at Snakes and Ladders to use randomness as a way to punish believers in game skills?

Maybe someone who blames their lack of money, free time and fading eyesight due to board game addiction on this site?

That last one didn't narrow the field down really.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Moxham
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
It's all very well to say, as some not unreasonably have, that in the eye of eternity these ratings don't matter much, and that it's best just to get past one's initial feelings.

But the fact is that that may be easier said than done. Such things really can hurt a lot, whether or not they should.

When in 2011, as a recent newcomer to BGG, I submitted a brand-new game to the database, the very first rating it received was a 1, from a contributor styling himself

Zubbus O'Really
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
.
I didn't have a problem with someone holding that critical an opinion on an empirical basis, but this was someone who at the time could have had no direct experience of the game on which to form it. Nor had he yet had time to conceive an antipathy towards me personally. It wasn't even, as far as I could tell, that he especially loathed abstracts as opposed to other types of game - his other '1's didn't appear to have much in common with Morelli.

So why on earth had he done it? Every so often, when I checked the latest ratings, I'd be reminded of his - and the indignation would burn anew. I even PM'ed him a couple of times, to ask him what the thinking was and why he hadn't just stayed silent instead. He didn't reply, of course, and I knew even at the time that it wasn't either useful or best practice to have approached him at all. But what the hell? I was really pissed-off. Still am, to tell the truth.

13 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
christian freeling
Netherlands
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmb
mocko wrote:
So why on earth had he done it? Every so often, when I checked the latest ratings, I'd be reminded of his - and the indignation would burn anew. I even PM'ed him a couple of times, to ask him what the thinking was and why he hadn't just stayed silent instead. He didn't reply, of course, and I knew even at the time that it wasn't either useful or best practice to have approached him at all. But what the hell? I was really pissed-off. Still am, to tell the truth.



You have my sympathy, but I fear it comes with the territory. It takes all kinds to make a world and you can see on any news channel that irrational and unreasonable behaviour exists, and sadly with far more serious consequences than hurting someone's feelings. My advice: get over it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Moxham
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
christianF wrote:
mocko wrote:
So why on earth had he done it? Every so often, when I checked the latest ratings, I'd be reminded of his - and the indignation would burn anew. I even PM'ed him a couple of times, to ask him what the thinking was and why he hadn't just stayed silent instead. He didn't reply, of course, and I knew even at the time that it wasn't either useful or best practice to have approached him at all. But what the hell? I was really pissed-off. Still am, to tell the truth.



You have my sympathy, but I fear it comes with the territory. It takes all kinds to make a world and you can see on any news channel that irrational and unreasonable behaviour exists, and sadly with far more serious consequences than hurting someone's feelings. My advice: get over it.

But Christian, with respect, you're not telling me anything new here. My point in posting was mainly that the advice to get over stuff is rarely very helpful, since the recipient as a rule is already well aware of its force and therefore would follow it unprompted if he could, but somehow can't, or can't quite.

In my particular case, it doesn't and never did feel like the end of the world, but I still reserve the right to kick the cat and exclaim "What an arsehole!" every time something reminds me of zubbus o'really. It's quite exhilarating, as a matter of fact - even therapeutic. And I just wanted to say that people who simply dismiss stuff from mind (or say they do - actually I'm not wholly convinced by that) are not automatically a higher form of pond-life than the cat-kickers.


8 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred W. Manzo
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
What upsets me is the irrationality and injustice of the whole thing. And yes, I know there is irrationality and injustice in the world and, no, I don't get over it. Why do you?

First BGG says "any person can rate any game any rating for any reason." Fine.

Then they TELL you what the average rating means. My question is, "how do they know what the average rating means?"

Second, they say there is a formula that takes into account off-the-wall ratings. But it only effects the "rankings" not the average "rating."

Third, then they highlight the RATING average and place it prominently next to the game's name, when they've already admitted they have no idea what it means.

Fourth, new games from new publishers with few ratings then get hammered by low average ratings through no fault of their own.

Fifth, SMJJ rated 10,000 games in a very short period of time, with 98% of them getting a "1". Yes, it may be a personal system meaning he looked at the page and has no interested in playing the game. Fine. What does that have to do with the quality of the game? (which the BGG rating implies by the prominence and placement of the flawed average rating next to the game's name on its page?)

And, finally, if his behavior is acceptable, why shouldn't everyone rate 98 % of all the games they come across on BGG a "1"?



15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Are you aware of the dangers foxes pose to you and
Sweden
flag msg tools
Help, I'm being held prisoner in an overtext typing facility! I don't have much time, they could find out at any m
badge
I'm that weirdo whose number of badges sold prior to yesterday Bail Organa is keeping track of
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Fred 100 wrote:
And, finally, if his behavior is acceptable, why shouldn't everyone rate 98 % of all the games they come across on BGG a "1"?


Because they wouldn't find it useful?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
christian freeling
Netherlands
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmb
mocko wrote:
And I just wanted to say that people who simply dismiss stuff from mind (or say they do - actually I'm not wholly convinced by that) are not automatically a higher form of pond-life than the cat-kickers.


I haven't forgotten say Mark What's his name again, but I took what I could learn from it.


Fred 100 wrote:
What upsets me is the irrationality and injustice of the whole thing. And yes, I know there is irrationality and injustice in the world and, no, I don't get over it. Why do you?


Because I'm 69, did a buch of nice games and now find other things more pleasant. Concerning the human condition I hover between optimism and pessimism, concerning my own I rest in amazement.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.