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Subject: Military Ops gains during Wars and card removal. rss

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Alexandre Santos
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I'm sorry if this has been rehashed, but I can't find a satisfactory solution. Could you tell me if the following is correct:

1 - playing war events associated to the US/USSR


1.A - If the USSR plays the Korean War event, it gains +4 in the military operations track because 1) +2 for playing the War event (8.2.3) 2) +2 for the event bonus as written in the card. The card is removed.

1.B - If the USSR plays Korean War for operations points, it does not gain any military operations, and the card is discarded.

1.C - If the US plays Korean War event, it gains +2 in the military operations track, and the USSR advances +2 in the military operations track because 1) +2 mil US for playing the card event(8.2.3) 2) +2 mil USSR because of the event associated bonus. The card is removed.

1.D - If the US plays Korean War for operations points, it does not gain any military operations, and USSR gains +2 mil ops because the war event is triggered (8.2.4). The card is removed.

2 - playing war events not associated to US/USSR


2.A - If the USSR plays Indo-Pakistani War for operations, the event is not triggered, nobody advances on the military operations track. The card is discarded.

2.B - If the USSR plays Indo-Pakistani War for the event, the USSR gains 4 Military Operations points because 1) +2 phasing player when playing a war event (8.2.3) 2) event bonus of +2 to the phasing player. The card remains in play.

Are all these propositions correct?
 
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Count Ringworm
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You do not get Mil Ops just for playing a war event.

Korean War
USSR plays event- They get 2 Mil ops. Card removed.
USSR plays for ops points - card discarded, only get mil ops if you performed a coup, in which case you'd get 2.
USA plays event (why would they??) - USSR gets 2 mil ops. Card removed.
USA plays for ops points - event fires, USSR gets 2 mil ops. Card removed. USA only gets mil ops if they couped.

Indo-Pakistani War

Player triggering event gets 2 mil ops. If the player plays for ops points, they only get mil ops if you couped. Card does not get removed, only discarded. Note you can play the event even if you control or there is no opponent influence in the target country. Sometimes you just want the mil ops.
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Alexandre Santos
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Thank you so much for those clarifications, it's makes much more sense. Am I correct with the following reading of the rules:

8.2.3 When Operations points are played in a Coup attempt, or
when a War Event card is played (e.g., Arab-Israeli War, Korean
War, etc.),
the phasing player moves his marker on the Military
Operations track a number of spaces equal to the Operations
value of the card.

8.2.4 If a player uses a card for Operations points, and thereby
triggers a War Event associated with his opponent, his opponent’s
Military marker is moved on the Military Operations track as
directed by the Event text.


Just @!%$ apply 5.2:

5.2 Events Associated With Your Opponent: If a player plays
a card as an Operation, and the card’s Event is associated only
with his opponent, the Event still occurs (and the card, if it has
an asterisk after the Event title, is removed).
 
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Mike Gallo
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I don't know if it helps, but the "Final Rules" here on BGG and the 2015 rules on GMT's website have slightly different wording.

8.2.3 From Final Rules on BGG wrote:
When Operations points are played in a Coup attempt, or when a War Event card is played (e.g., Arab-Israeli War, Korean War, etc.), the phasing player moves his marker on the Military Operations track a number of spaces equal to the Operations value of the card.


8.2.3 From 2015 Rules on GMT website wrote:
When Operations points are played in a Coup attempt, the phasing player moves his marker on the Military Operations track a number of spaces equal to the Operations value of the card. When a War Event card is played (e.g., Arab-Israeli War, Korean War etc.) the phasing player moves his marker the number of spaces designated by the event text.


However, in both situations the rules clearly state that the Phasing Player gains military ops indicated by the card.

Is this just a poorly written rule? All of the War cards I see clearly state a specific player to gain the Mil Ops. What is the purpose of 8.2.5 if the card is just going to tell us who gets the Mil Ops? Why doesn't 8.2.5 say "the player indicated on the card" instead of "phasing player", unless it means that, for example, the US should get Mil Ops for playing Arab-Israeli War?
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Count Ringworm
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Now i'm getting more confused as well!

I just read the FAQ v5 http://www.gmtgames.com/nnts/FAQv5.pdf:

# 31 Red Scare/Purge
Note- this card has a 2 ops value in the first edition of the game, but was upgraded to a 4 ops value in the 2nd edition. As of the Deluxe Edition 8.2.3 also clarifies that when a War Event is played the number of Military Operations is designated by the Event text.

Q. The rules declare that War events move the military Ops marker based on the operational points of the card. However the text of the War cards declare that the marker is moved 2 spaces. Which is right?

A. Apply the overriding rule of 5.5 which states that card text which contradicts the written rules overrides the written rules. A War Event, within the confines of its own card, defines the number of spaces to be moved, and does not refer to operations.

We've never played that the War Events give the phasing player mil ops- and now i think that might be wrong?! No idea what the rule is supposed to be now.
 
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Alexandre Santos
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Necr0mancer wrote:

However, in both situations the rules clearly state that the Phasing Player gains military ops indicated by the card.

Is this just a poorly written rule? All of the War cards I see clearly state a specific player to gain the Mil Ops. What is the purpose of 8.2.5 if the card is just going to tell us who gets the Mil Ops? Why doesn't 8.2.5 say "the player indicated on the card" instead of "phasing player", unless it means that, for example, the US should get Mil Ops for playing Arab-Israeli War?


8.2.3 is either surprising or incorrect. It it's not incorrect, the USSR gains 4 mil ops by playing the Korean War event, and US/USSR are even if the US plays it.

8.2.4 is completely redundant, as far as I can see, and should be deleted, 5.2 being enough.
 
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Alexandre Santos
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Ringworm wrote:

We've never played that the War Events give the phasing player mil ops- and now i think that might be wrong?! No idea what the rule is supposed to be now.


This is exactly why I posted this question, can't figure out what is the correct way to play shake
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Count Ringworm
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AlexFS wrote:


8.2.3 is either surprising or incorrect. It it's not incorrect, the USSR gains 4 mil ops by playing the Korean War event, and US/USSR are even if the US plays it.

8.2.4 is completely redundant, as far as I can see, and should be deleted, 5.2 being enough.


I agree, extending it by saying 8.2.4 seems to override 8.2.3.

Reading this again (and again, and again), it seems that you only get mil ops for war events as the card states. 8.2.3 just makes a poor attempt to clarify neutral war events (eg Indo-Pakistani) that just say "Player adds 2 to Military Ops Track".

So, i think i stand by my original post. whistle
 
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Jay Sachs
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Ringworm wrote:
AlexFS wrote:


8.2.3 is either surprising or incorrect. It it's not incorrect, the USSR gains 4 mil ops by playing the Korean War event, and US/USSR are even if the US plays it.

8.2.4 is completely redundant, as far as I can see, and should be deleted, 5.2 being enough.


I agree, extending it by saying 8.2.4 seems to override 8.2.3.

Reading this again (and again, and again), it seems that you only get mil ops for war events as the card states. 8.2.3 just makes a poor attempt to clarify neutral war events (eg Indo-Pakistani) that just say "Player adds 2 to Military Ops Track".

So, i think i stand by my original post. whistle


The rules are not well written here. The key thing is the undefined term "War Event".

Here's a correct interpretation:

When a player uses a card to coup, that player receives the milops equal to the effective operations points applied to the coup. So if the card you played for ops was e.g. decreased by Red Scare/Purge, you'd receive 1 fewer milop.

When a War Event triggers, the player executing the event receives 2 milops (unaffected by things like RSRP etc). For neutral events, this is the player using the event during their action round or as a result of e.g. Grain Sales. For non-neutral events, the side to which the card belongs receives the 2 milops (which is also the side that can both gain VPs and influence by the event).
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Christopher Hill
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I agree that 8.2.3 is not clearly written, but operations points and war events are two separate things. This distinction is made in the example of play on page 19 of the rules during US action round 4. It shows the US player playing the Arab-Israeli War card for 2 Ops points, adding one influence in Israel and one in Jordan. Because of game board conditions the USSR's die roll can not succeed, but the USSR does receive 2 military op points for the event being played. Nowhere does it indicate the US player also receives 2 military ops for playing the card.
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Mike Gallo
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To answer the actual question by the OP, the player named on the card is the only one who gets the mil ops. Ignore 8.2.3. I believe it is only trying to tell the reader other ways that a player could acquire mil ops.

This is the second time that my previously-high opinion of the rulebook has been diminished

Not a reflection on the game, but the rulebook. With such a detailed rulebook (That includes section numbers!) I felt that it would be more accurate and more clear. I have again been let down
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Jay Sachs
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Necr0mancer wrote:
To answer the actual question by the OP, the player named on the card is the only one who gets the mil ops.


Who is named on Indo-Pakistani War? Iran-Iraq War?

Rules are hard to write well.
 
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Mike Gallo
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jaysachs wrote:
Who is named on Indo-Pakistani War? Iran-Iraq War? Rules are hard to write well.


Both cards say "Player adds 2 to Military Ops Track". The player referenced is clearly the player who is playing the event and getting all of the other benefits of the card.

Unless you're trying to point out that the cards are written as poorly as the rule is?

The simple fix to 8.2.3 would be to leave out any mention of the War cards and let the cards themselves have the effect of granting the Mil Ops.

Writing this rule well would not be that hard, especially considering how many revisions the rules have gone through and opportunities t get it right.
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Kristian Thy
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jaysachs wrote:
Rules are hard to write well.


In this case the rule is completely superfluous, as you already have the text on the card. So somebody just decided to shoot themselves in the foot when writing the rules, apparently.
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Alexandre Santos
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kinga1965 wrote:
I agree that 8.2.3 is not clearly written, but operations points and war events are two separate things. This distinction is made in the example of play on page 19 of the rules during US action round 4. It shows the US player playing the Arab-Israeli War card for 2 Ops points, adding one influence in Israel and one in Jordan. Because of game board conditions the USSR's die roll can not succeed, but the USSR does receive 2 military op points for the event being played. Nowhere does it indicate the US player also receives 2 military ops for playing the card.


The example you give is inconclusive, because it's compatible with my propositions in the original post. But it's a good idea to try to use the example play (sourced from http://www.gmtgames.com/living_rules/TS_Rules_Deluxe.pdf)

Quote:
US Action Round 5:
Korean War (2 Ops - USSR) as Influence
Points. Adds 2 to South Korea (2/0). See Illustration #3.
Things are getting bad for the US. The Asian scoring card is
still out there. If Stefan does not take some risks, it could be a
short game. So, he plays Korean War and chances the roll. This
time, the “1” roll works in his favor. The North Korean invasion
has no effect. The futures of Hyundai and Samsung are secure.
Furthermore, the US player uses the occasion to starting build-
ing a wall of his own.


This is 1.D of my first post - obviously "2 Ops - USSR" meant "2 [Mil] Ops - USSR". Inconclusive (same result as my proposition) and incorrectly transcribed.

Quote:
Headline Phase
Soviet:
Red ScaRe (4 Ops)
US:indo-PakiStani WaR (2 Ops)
Red ScaRe/PuRge is a killer card and is almost reflexively played
as a headline card if you get your hands on it. Chris does and
looks to make turn two equally rough on the Americans. The
will now lose 1 operations point from all cards played this turn.
Stefan is still watching out for aSian ScoRing.
By leading with indo-PakiStani WaR
he can potentially make that scoring card
something to anticipate rather than dread.
American efforts, however, come up just a bit short. The modi
- fiers on indo-PakiStani WaR substract 1 from the die roll for
every friendly controlled country adjacent to the target. Stefan
gambles big and goes for Pakistan (success would mean 2 VP
and swapping Soviet Influence for American). However, Iran and
Afghanistan are already in the USSR’s orbit. So, the Americans
need to roll a 6. They roll a 5. At least they get two Mil Ops out
of the deal.


This is 2.B - No Mil Ops gained by playing the war card, just those gained as specified by the card text itself. Clearly the 2.B of the example play scores differently from my proposition, putting the matter to rest. Conclusive. thumbsup

Quote:
USSR Action Round 1:
aRaB-iSRaeli WaR(2 Ops) to Coup Panama. Rolls 5, US influ-
ence = 0, Soviet Influence 2. Soviets gain 2
Mil Ops, and DEFCON drops to 2.
The Soviet Player keeps his eyes firmly on
a Midwar prize. Sensing blood in the water
after turn 1, he tries to expand his foothold
in Latin America into a power base. That would spell doom for
the Americans in the Midwar. The cries of Yanqui go home get
louder and louder down south. Additionally, by couping imme-
diately and bringing DEFCON down to two, he prevents the US
from targeting a battleground country for a coup.


This is 1.B, and the USSR gains Mil Ops because Ops are used for a Coup, as per 8.2.3. Inconclusive.

Quote:
US Action Round 4:
aRaB-iSRaeli WaR(2 Op) as Influence
points. Adds 1 to Israel (4C/0) and 1 to Jordan (2C/0).
Very cleverly defused. Stefan uses the two ops from the card
to take advantage of the modifiers on the event. Since he now
controls Israel, Egypt and Jordan it is impossible for the Soviet
die roll to succeed. Still, the Soviets do collect 2 Mil Ops out of
the deal
. A very nice tactical play that rendered a Soviet event
useless while also improving Stefan’s boots on the ground in the
Middle East.


This is 1.D, and works as advertised, but inconclusive.

Clearly, 8.2.3 should be interpreted as:

Quote:
8.2.3 When Operations points are played in a Coup attempt, or
when a War Event card is played (e.g., Arab-Israeli War, Korean
War, etc.),
the phasing player moves his marker on the Military
Operations track a number of spaces equal to the Operations
value of the card.


Also, nobody so far has defended a literal interpretation of 8.2.3 that would be compatible to my propositions, so I think we can let the matter rest.

Thank you all for the clarifications, it was badly needed!
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Christopher Hill
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Quote:
US Action Round 5:
Korean War (2 Ops - USSR) as Influence
Points. Adds 2 to South Korea (2/0). See Illustration #3.
Things are getting bad for the US. The Asian scoring card is
still out there. If Stefan does not take some risks, it could be a
short game. So, he plays Korean War and chances the roll. This
time, the “1” roll works in his favor. The North Korean invasion
has no effect. The futures of Hyundai and Samsung are secure.
Furthermore, the US player uses the occasion to starting build-
ing a wall of his own.


Quote:
This is 1.D of my first post - obviously "2 Ops - USSR" meant "2 [Mil] Ops - USSR". Inconclusive (same result as my proposition) and incorrectly transcribed.


I think you are mistaken. The (2 Ops-USSR) is a description of the card ops value and event. The Korean War card is a 2 Ops value card and a USSR event.
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Alexandre Santos
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[q="kinga1965"]
Quote:
[i]US Action Round 5:
I think you are mistaken. The (2 Ops-USSR) is a description of the card ops value and event. The Korean War card is a 2 Ops value card and a USSR event.


I agree, my point is that the example play does not mention that the USSR player should have won 2 mil Ops, and thus is incomplete, which is a problem when you try to confirm rules by referring to it.
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Christopher Hill
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AlexFS wrote:
[q="kinga1965"]
Quote:
[i]US Action Round 5:
I think you are mistaken. The (2 Ops-USSR) is a description of the card ops value and event. The Korean War card is a 2 Ops value card and a USSR event.


I agree, my point is that the example play does not mention that the USSR player should have won 2 mil Ops, and thus is incomplete, which is a problem when you try to confirm rules by referring to it.


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but your reference was to US action round 5, turn 1 on page 16 of the rule book. My reference was to US action round 4, turn 3 on page 19 of the rule book where in the middle of the comments paragraph it states, "Still, the Soviets do collect 2 Mil Ops out of the deal."
 
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Alexandre Santos
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kinga1965 wrote:
AlexFS wrote:
kinga1965 wrote:
US Action Round 5:
I think you are mistaken. The (2 Ops-USSR) is a description of the card ops value and event. The Korean War card is a 2 Ops value card and a USSR event.


I agree, my point is that the example play does not mention that the USSR player should have won 2 mil Ops, and thus is incomplete, which is a problem when you try to confirm rules by referring to it.


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but your reference was to US action round 5, turn 1 on page 16 of the rule book. My reference was to US action round 4, turn 3 on page 19 of the rule book where in the middle of the comments paragraph it states, "Still, the Soviets do collect 2 Mil Ops out of the deal."


No problem, let's finish off this equine corpse.

Your reference (US action round 4, turn 3 on page 19:
Quote:
US Action Round 4: Arab-Israeli War (2 Op) as Influence
points. Adds 1 to Israel (4C/0) and 1 to Jordan (2C/0).
Very cleverly defused. Stefan uses the two ops from the card
to take advantage of the modifiers on the event. Since he now
controls Israel, Egypt and Jordan it is impossible for the Soviet
die roll to succeed. Still, the Soviets do collect 2 Mil Ops out of
the deal
. A very nice tactical play that rendered a Soviet event
useless while also improving Stefan’s boots on the ground in the
Middle East.


Yep, this is 1.D (inconclusive), but this time it is correctly stated that the USSR gains 2 Mil Ops, which does not happen in the US play of the Korean War in round 5, turn 1 on page 16.
The play report is inconsistent. Sometimes mil ops gains are reported (sometimes in the round heading : final round - US action round 6 of turn 3 in p. 20, sometimes in the text, as above) sometimes not at all, as in the Korean War play by the US in the US action round 5, turn 1 on page 16.
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Christopher Hill
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Yes, no worries on my part. I was just trying to show that although not consistently stated, it was shown in the example of play. Bottom line, rule 8.2.3 should have been written more clearly.

Writing rules and examples of play are difficult tasks to capture all of the nuances a complex game like Twilight Struggle presents.
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