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Subject: About Death Cheater rss

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S Murphy
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Death cheater's counter ability has me a bit confused. I know it triggers when he is attacked. I know he re rolls all dice that hit him. What I don't know is how many shots can be considered as "hitting him".

He only has 4 hit points, so discounting his special ability, he could only be hit 4 times because the rulebook states that all hits beyond critical condition are wasted.

But he doesn't take any wounds until his counter attempt: "Any successful die eliminates 1 enemy unit and cancels 1 injury the death cheater should have suffered." That makes it sound as though he doesnt get wounded until after the counter has been resolved. So do you get to reroll all dice that would be considered hits and then see how many wounds are left? Even if that means he shoots 16 times back into a large tile and wipes out an entire squad of enemies?

It also has an impact when he shares his tile with another commando. If he can counter as many shots as would hit, then can the players use him as a bullet sponge to soak up all 16 shots while the other commando takes none?

My thinking, from a mechanical point of view, is that it makes sense that his ability caps out at how much health he has left, or 4 counterattack rolls if he is at full health. But the way I read the text, that's not the impression I get.

Clarification, Thibaud?
 
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X. Nostradunwhich
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I think you are overthinking this a bit. Just because all wounds beyond the 4 are ignored does not mean they did not "hit".

Check out Re: About Death Cheater
 
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Phil McDonald
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Nostradunwhich wrote:
I think you are overthinking this a bit. Just because all wounds beyond the 4 are ignored does not mean they did not "hit".

Check out Re: About Death Cheater


That link seems to come back to THIS thread
 
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X. Nostradunwhich
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Nostradunwhich wrote:
I think you are overthinking this a bit. Just because all wounds beyond the 4 are ignored does not mean they did not "hit".

Check out Re: About Death Cheater

Oops! After trying to get the link to work I ended up getting the wrong ID inserted. Was so happy I got a link to work I did not double-check it.

I meant this one: Re: "Suffer a Shot" ?
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S Murphy
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I have read that link. Thibaud clarifies there what suffering a shot means. But suffering a shot only activates the ability. My question is more on application of it once it's been executed.

Maybe I am overthinking it, but I would like clarification all the same. Mainly because death cheater is overpowered if he works the way you're indicating.

An example: Death Cheater and Medic share a large tile. They also share it with 7 SS troops. That's 21 shots aimed at the commandos. If all hits are applicable to Death Cheater's ability, I can send all hits to him and keep medic at full health. On average, 21 shots would hit 17.5 times on a large tile. So now Death Cheater gets to roll 17 dice to counter attack the SS. He will average 14 successful hits on a large tile. This will kill all of the enemies and wound him 3 times, leaving still 1 hit point. Now the medic can heal him, and they've just destroyed a very powerful force more easily than an airstrike can with only the cost of one medkit, and both come out unharmed.

So that's my main issue. If it works that way, it feels like he's an unbalanced character.

Which is why I suspect Thibaud's intent might be different.
 
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Phil McDonald
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I may be wrong, but I think that taking a shot from a german unit is a single thing, irrespective of how many dice would be rolled by it. It is one shot, with 3 dice in your example.
 
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S Murphy
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Death Cheater, though, (and I might me misremembering as I don't have the game nearby at present) says to reroll all dice that hit you. Which would seem to indicate that it is per dice and not per shot.
 
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Phil McDonald
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LazerWizard wrote:
Death Cheater, though, (and I might me misremembering as I don't have the game nearby at present) says to reroll all dice that hit you. Which would seem to indicate that it is per dice and not per shot.


I was assuming that it was the shot that triggered the use of the ability, and just once, so the maximum number of dice that could be redirected would be 3?? Otherwise it seems rather overpowered?
 
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S Murphy
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You're saying you think the ability is supposed to be a once per turn ability? And only be used against a single enemy?

That would certainly make it a more reasonable skill, if not a bit underpowered at that point. But I'm not sure that's the case. The text seems to indicate pretty clearly you can kill multiple enemies with it.
Also, that would end up requiring you to roll one enemy shot separately from the other enemies on his tile if I'm understanding you correctly, which I don't think would be the case.

I'm still thinking the most likely answer is that the skill caps at Death Cheater's current health, and wounds are distributed first and then removed on a successful counter. That way Death Cheater can't be used as a shield for other commandos and he can only kill as many enemies as he has health. To me, that makes the most sense balance-wise.

Very interested in Thibaud's response. As of now, my wife has been abusing Death Cheater's ability in such an effective way, it makes me feel bad for the nazis.
 
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X. Nostradunwhich
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LazerWizard wrote:
An example: Death Cheater and Medic share a large tile. They also share it with 7 SS troops. That's 21 shots aimed at the commandos. If all hits are applicable to Death Cheater's ability, I can send all hits to him and keep medic at full health. On average, 21 shots would hit 17.5 times on a large tile. So now Death Cheater gets to roll 17 dice to counter attack the SS. He will average 14 successful hits on a large tile. This will kill all of the enemies and wound him 3 times, leaving still 1 hit point. Now the medic can heal him, and they've just destroyed a very powerful force more easily than an airstrike can with only the cost of one medkit, and both come out unharmed.

This is the most absurd set of circumstances -- if you are up against that many SS troopers, on the worst case terrain, your mission has gone horribly wrong. You also have the worst luck drawing reinforcements. It is a bit of an absurd scenario, but it does make a valid point. However, assuming you replace the SS troopers with some baseline infantry it is not going to change the outcome you have postulated much. Less hits to deflect, but less of a threat.

I would be curious how the Death Cheater's power was envisioned to work during playtesting.

Perhaps an easy fix would be that the "reflected" dice only hit on a 4+, so you would stop half the wounds on average. With such a simple change in the scenario you describe both commandos end up out of action rather than waltzing through unscathed. [Edit to add: I think a fixed chance is better than relying on the target tile to prevent just such an issue.]

 
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S Murphy
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Yeah, that particular set of circumstances isn't likely. It was just laid out that way to simplify the example. But, as you noted, lesser enemies can cause the same basic situation, and that's why this question came up in the first place. Last night my wife killed 9 enemies on a large tile with her counter and came out untouched. Then, she killed 2 more on an adjoining medium tile also untouched.

Your point is well made that we made some serious oopsies to get in that spot to begin with, but even still.

I like your solution to the problem. Just one question: Are all hits allocated to Death Cheater at first and then, after he negates some, remaining hits get divided among the 2 commandos?
 
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X. Nostradunwhich
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LazerWizard wrote:
Yeah, that particular set of circumstances isn't likely. It was just laid out that way to simplify the example. But, as you noted, lesser enemies can cause the same basic situation, and that's why this question came up in the first place. Last night my wife killed 9 enemies on a large tile with her counter and came out untouched. Then, she killed 2 more on an adjoining medium tile also untouched.

Your point is well made that we made some serious oopsies to get in that spot to begin with, but even still.

I like your solution to the problem. Just one question: Are all hits allocated to Death Cheater at first and then, after he negates some, remaining hits get divided among the 2 commandos?

That is certainly within the RAW, so I would stick with that.
 
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Thibaud de la Touanne
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I corrected the character card to only use this ability once per turn.https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0415/3361/files/Commando_D...

 
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Thibaud de la Touanne
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LazerWizard wrote:
Just one question: Are all hits allocated to Death Cheater at first and then, after he negates some, remaining hits get divided among the 2 commandos?


By strictly appliying the rules, you cannot do that.
p.12 (bottom right) commandos on the same tile, targeted by enemy shots can decide how to split the hits. So for example if you receive 5 hits, you can decide to assign 4 hits to the death cheater (one for each empty space on his character card) but you must assign 1 to the medic.

After enemy shooting phase, the Death Cheater can perform his "0 action" ability (like any commando in critical condition) and then reroll the dice (4 maximum as he can only get 4 hits maximum).
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S Murphy
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Thank you so much for the reply, Thibaud.

This question has been killing me all day
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X. Nostradunwhich
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ThibaudMTL wrote:
I corrected the character card to only use this ability once per turn.

The text now reads (emphasis added):

[1xT][0A]When this character suffers a shot, reroll all dice hitting him to perform a shot on aggressor's tile. Any successful die eliminates 1 enemy unit and cancels 1 injury the Death Cheater should have suffered.

Now, when you shoot you "Gather as many dice as the total of little white squares" and roll them all at once, so 1xT is not really going to change anything since all attacks happen at the same time on a turn.

The sentence "Any successful die eliminates 1 enemy unit and cancels 1 injury" can easily be interpreted as "That die is a success, so that counts... and that die over there is a success so it counts..." Rather than the (I think) intended "If one or more dice are a success, eliminate a single enemy unit and cancel a single injury the Death Cheater has just suffered."

Or perhaps it would be better to change Death Cheater to suffer a Hit rather than a Shot? If he is not hit, he cannot use his power anyway, at least as written

Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the meaning?


ThibaudMTL wrote:
LazerWizard wrote:
Just one question: Are all hits allocated to Death Cheater at first and then, after he negates some, remaining hits get divided among the 2 commandos?


By strictly appliying the rules, you cannot do that.
p.12 (bottom right) commandos on the same tile, targeted by enemy shots can decide how to split the hits. So for example if you receive 5 hits, you can decide to assign 4 hits to the death cheater (one for each empty space on his character card) but you must assign 1 to the medic.

After enemy shooting phase, the Death Cheater can perform his "0 action" ability (like any commando in critical condition) and then reroll the dice (4 maximum as he can only get 4 hits maximum).

Ah. Thank you for pointing out the order of operations on that. I know I was interpreting it incorrectly.

 
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Christopher Dodge
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ThibaudMTL wrote:
After enemy shooting phase, the Death Cheater can perform his "0 action" ability (like any commando in critical condition) and then reroll the dice (4 maximum as he can only get 4 hits maximum).


If the death cheater is injured with two wounds, would he only get to reroll two dice since now he can only take two hits maximum before dying? That would make sense to me since an injured person generally cannot perform to the same expectation as a healthy person.
 
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X. Nostradunwhich
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14cross wrote:
If the death cheater is injured with two wounds, would he only get to reroll two dice since now he can only take two hits maximum before dying? That would make sense to me since an injured person generally cannot perform to the same expectation as a healthy person.

Did you mean that he was previously wounded with two wounds, and then takes two more? Or did you mean he was only wounded with two wounds this turn?

Assuming you meant the former, it is less any sort of "realism" in that he was already wounded than I think a rules issue that he only suffered 2 hits this turn, so he can only roll 2 dice. However it does bring up a good question about the wording of his ability
 
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S Murphy
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Nostradunwhich wrote:
ThibaudMTL wrote:
I corrected the character card to only use this ability once per turn.

The text now reads (emphasis added):

[1xT][0A]When this character suffers a shot, reroll all dice hitting him to perform a shot on aggressor's tile. Any successful die eliminates 1 enemy unit and cancels 1 injury the Death Cheater should have suffered.

Now, when you shoot you "Gather as many dice as the total of little white squares" and roll them all at once, so 1xT is not really going to change anything since all attacks happen at the same time on a turn.

1xT does make a big difference. You roll attacks per "enemy group". And enemy groups are determined by what tile they are on.
"Gather as many dice as the total of little white squares illustrated on all enemy units in the enemy group that is shooting"

So if an enemy group in an adjacent medium tile is attacking you at the same time as an enemy group in an adjacent small tile, 1xT requires you to choose which group you will use your counter-attack on. Previously, you could counter both groups freely.

Nostradunwhich wrote:

The sentence "Any successful die eliminates 1 enemy unit and cancels 1 injury" can easily be interpreted as "That die is a success, so that counts... and that die over there is a success so it counts..." Rather than the (I think) intended "If one or more dice are a success, eliminate a single enemy unit and cancel a single injury the Death Cheater has just suffered."


I see what you're saying. The wording on this can be interpreted two ways.

The intent of the skill is that you can kill multiple enemies with your counter-attack, though, I believe. And, I think that's the way it reads more strongly already. But it would be better worded as "Each successful die..."

If you are shot at by 2 enemies and would suffer 2 wounds from that normally, Death Cheater's ability allows you to roll a counter-attack back to that tile. If you get 2 successes, you kill both enemies and negate both wounds. If you only get 1 success, you take 1 wound and 1 enemy dies.
 
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S Murphy
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14cross wrote:
ThibaudMTL wrote:
After enemy shooting phase, the Death Cheater can perform his "0 action" ability (like any commando in critical condition) and then reroll the dice (4 maximum as he can only get 4 hits maximum).


If the death cheater is injured with two wounds, would he only get to reroll two dice since now he can only take two hits maximum before dying? That would make sense to me since an injured person generally cannot perform to the same expectation as a healthy person.


This is correct. According to the clarification provided by Thibaud, the limiting factor in the counter-attack is that wounds are distributed first, up to the max available. Each wound you receive counts as a hit that you can re-roll if you choose to use Death Cheater's ability.

So if you are wounded twice, then you cannot take more than 2 wounds. Meaning you cannot take more than 2 hits. Consequently, you cannot counter more than 2 hits.
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X. Nostradunwhich
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LazerWizard wrote:
1xT does make a big difference. You roll attacks per "enemy group". And enemy groups are determined by what tile they are on.
"Gather as many dice as the total of little white squares illustrated on all enemy units in the enemy group that is shooting"

Great point, thank you for correcting me.

LazerWizard wrote:
The intent of the skill is that you can kill multiple enemies with your counter-attack, though, I believe. And, I think that's the way it reads more strongly already. But it would be better worded as "Each successful die..."

If you are shot at by 2 enemies and would suffer 2 wounds from that normally, Death Cheater's ability allows you to roll a counter-attack back to that tile. If you get 2 successes, you kill both enemies and negate both wounds. If you only get 1 success, you take 1 wound and 1 enemy dies.

Perhaps I was putting too much of the idea of "the power was changed" into my reading. But you can see how I arrived there? The wording needs to be clearer.
 
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Christopher Dodge
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Nostradunwhich wrote:
14cross wrote:
If the death cheater is injured with two wounds, would he only get to reroll two dice since now he can only take two hits maximum before dying? That would make sense to me since an injured person generally cannot perform to the same expectation as a healthy person.

Did you mean that he was previously wounded with two wounds, and then takes two more? Or did you mean he was only wounded with two wounds this turn?

Assuming you meant the former, it is less any sort of "realism" in that he was already wounded than I think a rules issue that he only suffered 2 hits this turn, so he can only roll 2 dice. However it does bring up a good question about the wording of his ability


Ya, I meant that he already had two wounds when he was fired upon again. So this time he would only get to reroll two dice since now he can only take two hits maximum before dying.
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F M
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If Death Cheater is alone and takes 6 hits, 4 wound and kill him and there are 2 extras. He goes critical, uses his special ability, succeeds in cancelling the 4 fatal hits and so ressucitate with a full health. Does he then takes the initial 2 extra hits?
 
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Jerry Tresman
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mntee wrote:
If Death Cheater is alone and takes 6 hits, 4 wound and kill him and there are 2 extras. He goes critical, uses his special ability, succeeds in cancelling the 4 fatal hits and so ressucitate with a full health. Does he then takes the initial 2 extra hits?


If he has not taken a wound and is alone then he can only take 4 its the others are ignored, this is in the rules. As Thibaud pointed out the group attacks the 4 hits are applied then his ) free action may be used.

Once per trn he can cheat death.
 
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