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Anytime that trump uses a whole round number, I think we can assume that it's over stated by roughly 33%. So 730 becomes 1000. 750 billion becomes 1 trillion, etc.

I think 800 just felt too "small" to him and he had to inflate it.

I don't think it's a threat to the country.

So with 730 jobs saved, the cost per job saved is now up to 10,000 per job. And the CEO said on Cramer that many of those jobs which were high paying would be automated away by the new plant. So it may be by 4 years from now that well under 730 jobs were actually saved.

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Chris Binkowski
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maxo-texas wrote:
Anytime that trump uses a whole round number, I think we can assume that it's over stated by roughly 33%. So 730 becomes 1000. 750 billion becomes 1 trillion, etc.

I think 800 just felt too "small" to him and he had to inflate it.

I don't think it's a threat to the country.

So with 730 jobs saved, the cost per job saved is now up to 10,000 per job. And the CEO said on Cramer that many of those jobs which were high paying would be automated away by the new plant. So it may be by 4 years from now that well under 730 jobs were actually saved.



Yeah but for now, 730 families get to eat.

I don't have any illusions that Trump's day is just a stay of execution for the world.

I mean, you do realize how close we came to imminent disaster, yes no?
 
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Sarxis wrote:

I mean, you do realize how close we came to imminent disaster, yes no?


No, I don't.

Please explain how close we came to imminent disaster.

Provide links.

And avoid quotations from the Bible.

Darilian
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He keeps racking these up and he's not even President yet.

Oh, you haters, gonna have a long eight plus years.

Gonna be funny when the excuses for the anemic Obama economy start coming in.

Probably Bush's fault.
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Sarxis wrote:
I mean, you do realize how close we came to imminent disaster, yes no?


Oh, you're singing Mac's song.
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tstone wrote:
He keeps racking these up and he's not even President yet.

Oh, you haters, gonna have a long eight plus years.

Gonna be funny when the excuses for the anemic Obama economy start coming in.

Probably Bush's fault.


I do hope you're right. Doubt it though. The structural issues with the American economy can't be fixed by offering more tax breaks to companies to keep them from taking jobs overseas where they basically employ slave labor. But I'm rooting for Trump -- and praying Congress actually does something.
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If only Trump had a website that was opening up where we could track its progress, then Mac's transition to Tripp 2.0* would be complete.






* Or would it be Bizarro Tripp since it would be about the other side of the spectrum?
 
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Austin, Texas, has a conservative city government? Jesus to Jesus, how much has it changed down there????
 
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GameCrossing wrote:
If only Trump had a website that was opening up where we could track its progress, then Mac's transition to Tripp 2.0* would be complete.






* Or would it be Bizarro Tripp since it would be about the other side of the spectrum?


Look, if Mr. Trump didn't lie multiple times daily*, there would be no need to comment on his pathological need to lie and inflate his self image.

Is it a fact that the carrier deal was criticized by Sarah Palin (and other conservatives) as crony conservatism? yes.

Is it a fact that trump lied about the numbers knowingly when he announced the deal? yes.

Anyway.. the idea didn't come from me. They were discussing the "trump discount" and the pathological lying by trump and his staff in the news yesterday in relation to the boeing stock crash because bald face lying is coming up as an issue daily.

Such as saying flynn's son was not a major figure in the transition team in response to questions on morning joe. Why wasn't he a major figure in the transition team? Because he'd been fired that morning before pence went on the show!

If Mr. Trump is going to do something venal, ignorant, or stupid on a daily basis, then it's going to come up here.

But Tripp? Really. I had no idea I used so many curse words or was so irrational. I thought I was talking about easy to verify facts which are in the headlines that day. Guess I was mistaken.

*
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/10/one-month-253...
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The fewest inaccuracies I’ve heard in any day is four. The most is 25. (Twenty-five!) That doesn’t include the first two debates, at which I counted 34 and 33, respectively. Over the course of 33 days, I counted a total of 253 (including some that repeat).
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Darilian wrote:


And avoid quotations from the Bible.

Darilian


YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!
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tstone wrote:
He keeps racking these up and he's not even President yet.

Oh, you haters, gonna have a long eight plus years.

Gonna be funny when the excuses for the anemic Obama economy start coming in.

Probably Bush's fault.


I know right?

How many whoppers is he going to tell before he's even in office? Will he be able to maintain the pace of over a dozen verifiable lies per day while in the primaries?

I'm glad he saved 730 jobs (tho per the Carrier CEO even those 730 jobs are not really saved for the entire term of the deal). I could have GIVEN him 800 jobs-- that's "normal" level of lying. The point of this particular thread is Mr. Trumps knowingly lying and saying it was 1,000 jobs when he knew it wasn't.

It's hard to keep up with him because he tells so many lies. I know to some, yet another Trump lie doesn't seem like news but it is every time he does it.

And more rationally- it really does look like the 25% inflation/discount is a 'thing' in his personality. I'm serious. Mr Trump regularly paid people about 75% of what he promised them. Mr Trump also seems to over state by about a third.

This will help in processing his statements during his term in office. They were referring to it on the news as the "trump" discount. If he is consistent in this regard then I might even be able to stop calling it lying (tho it is) because you could kinda "guesstimate" reliably.

When I was a project manager I had individual fudge factors for each employee. Each would give a 40 hour estimate but I knew one was cautious and that really meant 32 hours while the other one was always optimistic and it might mean 50 hours. I didn't think of them as lying when they did it.

So this would give a way to distinguish between mere exaggeration without malicious intent and lies of intent.

(and on the policy issue- even conservatives are criticizing the carrier deal as crony capitalism. is it now okay for the government to pick winners and losers with you tstone? You okay with giving companies a $10,000 subsidy per job?)
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Sarxis wrote:
Darilian wrote:


And avoid quotations from the Bible.

Darilian


YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!


Success! That's not from the bible!
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utoption2 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Anytime that trump uses a whole round number, I think we can assume that it's over stated by roughly 33%. So 730 becomes 1000. 750 billion becomes 1 trillion, etc.

I think 800 just felt too "small" to him and he had to inflate it.

I don't think it's a threat to the country.

So with 730 jobs saved, the cost per job saved is now up to 10,000 per job. And the CEO said on Cramer that many of those jobs which were high paying would be automated away by the new plant. So it may be by 4 years from now that well under 730 jobs were actually saved.



I fucking ***hate*** saved jobs. Also, dumba$$ City of Austin and Rick Perry giving all those money-grubbing, tax-evading dicks at Apple all those tax breaks so they would build all those fucking buildings right by house. I **hate** those fucking thousands of jobs they brought in, too, filling those buildings. Damn, doubled the value of my house and raised my god-damn property taxes. Now, they are building all these god-damn restaurants, apartments, and fucking shopping centers to cater to these fucks. Damn capitalists.

REPUBLICANS SUCK. TAX BREAKS SUCK. JOBS SUCK.


Didn't you get the memo that sarcasm was supposed to be done in green?
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maxo-texas wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
If only Trump had a website that was opening up where we could track its progress, then Mac's transition to Tripp 2.0* would be complete.






* Or would it be Bizarro Tripp since it would be about the other side of the spectrum?


Look, if Mr. Trump didn't lie multiple times daily, there would be no need to comment on his pathological need to lie and inflate his self image.

Is it a fact that the carrier deal was criticized by Sarah Palin (and other conservatives) as crony conservatism? yes.

Is it a fact that trump lied about the numbers knowingly when he announced the deal? yes.

Anyway.. the idea didn't come from me. They were discussing the "trump discount" and the pathological lying by trump and his staff in the news yesterday in relation to the boeing stock crash because bald face lying is coming up as an issue daily.

Such as saying flynn's son was not a major figure in the transition team in response to questions on morning joe. Why wasn't he a major figure in the transition team? Because he'd been fired that morning before pence went on the show!

If Mr. Trump is going to do something venal, ignorant, or stupid on a daily basis, then it's going to come up here.

But Tripp? Really. I had no idea I used so many curse words or was so irrational. I thought I was talking about easy to verify facts which are in the headlines that day. Guess I was mistaken.


No, I'm sure in your desperate clinging to the shattered remains of your bubble, you repeat a mantra to yourself about how you are rational as all get out.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
I love the Newfound Respect™ for Sarah Palin whom leftists previously declared a "cunt."



When someone goes against their self interest to stand on principle- it's noteworthy. It let's you know their principles mean something.

It was easy for republicans under obama. Now, with republicans vs republicans we might actually get a better picture of who they are than we've had in years.

I still think she was unqualified to be vice president when chosen and was a terrible choice by McCain.
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utoption2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Austin, Texas, has a conservative city government? Jesus to Jesus, how much has it changed down there????


And a FUCKING Republican governor that supports those shitty tax breaks.

Asshole and that predecessor asshole of his, Rick Perry.

What is the damn unemployment rate in Texas now? 4.4%! http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.tx.htm

In Austin? OMFG! 2.9%! http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.tx_austin_msa.htm

GODDAMIT YOU FUCKING REPUBLICANS. GTFO!


You know what we need? Unions! More Regulations! Higher Taxes! Fairness!

(If you all haven't noticed, I am really pissed off today at these fucking conservatives in Texas, as they are really fucking shit up)


That's what y'all get when you let all them Yankees move to Texas and start calling themselves "Texans." If they can fuck up Austin, the rest of the state is toast.
 
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Trump plans to give Carrier $7 million in taxpayer dollars to save jobs and the company is still shipping 1,250 jobs to Mexico.
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Drew1365 wrote:
I love the Newfound Respect™ for Sarah Palin whom leftists previously declared a "cunt."



I don't see it as newfound respect. I read it is "Curing constipation with a power drill is such a terrible idea that even the village idiot can see it's bad".

Still, thanks for reminding me that someone once used a sexist term to describe Palin and that liberals must carry that cross for the rest of time.
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I think there's a few fair conclusions to be made about this whole schmeer.

First off, there's nothing immoral or wrong about giving businesses tax breaks/incentives to encourage them to set up/remain in a particular area. Lots of places do that for movie production, or tech startups, or whatever. It's a fairly bloodless political and economic calculation: will giving the business a tax credit cost more by the giveaway then it generates in revenue/employment?

So, in a bland neutral sense there's nothing wrong with Trump "negotiating" a tax deal with Indiana and Carrier. But the world isn't bland and neutral.

It's entirely fair to criticize the deal as being a bad one. Drew is predictably criticizing lefties here for not liking the deal because he thinks liberals want those poor white working class people in Indiana to starve, and because Drew actually has no principles beyond "like what liberals don't like" because if he had an ounce of consistency he'd probably be criticizing the deal because it's something of an overspend as compared to return. $7 million for approximately 700 jobs is ten thousand dollars per job saved, with no guarantee that the jobs will remain any longer than Carrier finds it profitable with that tax break to keep them there. In comparison, the GM bailout, which Drew has repeatedly criticized as a massive government boondoggle and waste of tax dollars, cost about $6,600 per job saved (and preserved $35 billion of GDP).

(It's also worth noting that for all Trump's claimed skill as a master negotiator, he basically fucked up right from the get-go by publicly promising that he would get Carrier to agree to a deal, thus giving them additional leverage (because he didn't want to be embarrassed). Again, this is a man who literally went bankrupt running a casino, where the business model is "people show up and just sort of give you money," because he opened a second casino immediately across the street because he didn't understand the concept of cannibalizing your own business. Trump is a good salesman and not much else, and it's worth remembering that he started out with a ton of money from his rich daddy and hasn't even beaten the stock market index.)

Further, even if you think the deal is good - and it's fair to think it is (or at least that it is less bad than other tax incentive deals), because there are plenty of tax credits worth more than $10K per job created/preserved out there - it's still important to remember that it is the exact antithesis of what he campaigned on. Trump campaigned on and promised the idea of punishment for companies which outsourced jobs - in the form of additional taxes and fines. Now, granted, this was probably a stupid policy in and of itself, but at least it was a policy that people could assess and vote on, and vote they did, and the minority-elect apparently wanted it.

Finally, it's a bad idea because Trump's just shown every American manufacturer how to roll him. He wants to be praised and he doesn't have the patience for policy because he thinks in terms of "deals," so now the next American manufacturer that wants a tax break just has to release some details about their planned outsourcing and wait for President Trump to swoop in an organize a new tax credit for them and they'll still be able to move jobs overseas if they like.
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maxo-texas wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
Darilian wrote:


And avoid quotations from the Bible.

Darilian


YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!


Success! That's not from the bible!


Pretty sure Jesus said that to God at least once.
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utoption2 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
trump and his staff in the news yesterday in relation to the boeing stock crash because bald face lying is coming up as an issue daily.


What Boeing Stock cash? It is near its year high today!

That is because, based on Carrier, people can already see that Trumps threats are followed up with huge government handouts. I wonder how much government money Trump is going to hand over to Boeing?

Actually on a side note, Boeing is the biggest single exporter in the USA. If Trump does start using tariffs to protect US industries, Boeing (as well as John Deere, Caterpillar, etc) will be the first business that is likely to feel the pain of foreign tariffs in response.
 
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utoption2 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Anytime that trump uses a whole round number, I think we can assume that it's over stated by roughly 33%. So 730 becomes 1000. 750 billion becomes 1 trillion, etc.

I think 800 just felt too "small" to him and he had to inflate it.

I don't think it's a threat to the country.

So with 730 jobs saved, the cost per job saved is now up to 10,000 per job. And the CEO said on Cramer that many of those jobs which were high paying would be automated away by the new plant. So it may be by 4 years from now that well under 730 jobs were actually saved.



Alarmist-in-chief alert! The sky is falling!

In other news, stock market hits all time high (I thought the AIC and fellow liberals said a stock Armageddon was gonna befall us). Cough, cough. Wrong again.

The market is going up because of the talk of reducing corporate tax rates, it has nothing to do with the economy. I am still really concerned that Trump will set off a trade war, as well as the statistical likelihood of a recession in the new couple of years, but the market wants to go up, and standing in the way is a good way to lose money. I've decided to join in, at least for a month or two and ride the wave.

That doesn't mean that I think the economy is going to suddenly take off, only that we might be in for some irrational exuberance until reality catches up to us. In the end, it is hard for the economy to grow consistently when all the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the top 1%.
 
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Saving jobs the market deems surplus to requirements due to being too expensive? THAT'S SOCALISM!
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utoption2 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Anytime that trump uses a whole round number, I think we can assume that it's over stated by roughly 33%. So 730 becomes 1000. 750 billion becomes 1 trillion, etc.

I think 800 just felt too "small" to him and he had to inflate it.

I don't think it's a threat to the country.

So with 730 jobs saved, the cost per job saved is now up to 10,000 per job. And the CEO said on Cramer that many of those jobs which were high paying would be automated away by the new plant. So it may be by 4 years from now that well under 730 jobs were actually saved.



Alarmist-in-Chief (AIC) alert! The sky is falling!

In other news, stock market hits all time high (I thought the AIC and fellow liberals said a stock Armageddon was gonna befall us). Cough, cough. Wrong again.


Good times ahead for Goldman-Sachs and the other big banks. For you? I'm sure you get a minimum wage job polishing limousines.
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aiabx wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Anytime that trump uses a whole round number, I think we can assume that it's over stated by roughly 33%. So 730 becomes 1000. 750 billion becomes 1 trillion, etc.

I think 800 just felt too "small" to him and he had to inflate it.

I don't think it's a threat to the country.

So with 730 jobs saved, the cost per job saved is now up to 10,000 per job. And the CEO said on Cramer that many of those jobs which were high paying would be automated away by the new plant. So it may be by 4 years from now that well under 730 jobs were actually saved.



Alarmist-in-Chief (AIC) alert! The sky is falling!

In other news, stock market hits all time high (I thought the AIC and fellow liberals said a stock Armageddon was gonna befall us). Cough, cough. Wrong again.


Good times ahead for Goldman-Sachs and the other big banks. For you? I'm sure you get a minimum wage job polishing limousines.

That was exactly my point. The value of the stock market doesn't have a lot of association with how the average person is doing, it just reflects how profitable corporations are vs. the current interest rate. The reason the market has gone up since Trump was elected is a belief that Trump will hand corporations more weapons in their fight against paying taxes and paying more to their employees. In the short term that means profits go up. Great for the shareholders, but I fail to see how that is going to benefit anyone in the rust belt.
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