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Subject: Risks and Challenges rss

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Disclaimer: Much of this applies to all Kickstarter projects.

So I think this game looks amazing. It is clear that it is a true passion for the creator and many of the fans. My question/concern is about the feasibility of the finances. I will try to break this down into several main points, which I hope will generate a useful discussions (trying to avoid a lovefest or lots of ragers).

1. My understanding is that the original KS was successful, but for that to happen Poots had to leverage his assets from his entire minatures line. I assume that lessons were learned, but this is a really risky/bad precedent for a business to set.

2. There is no business plan laid out for potential backers. I know this has become the norm for KS, but no small business could get a loan for $7 million+ in any other context without having a huge amount of financial planning/disclosures. I think the debate about how Poots is rolling out info on the product is a bit silly (he clearly has a good grasp that you want to maintain a steady level of hype), but it would be reassuring to have financial plan info up front.

3. Does the creator/company have a good accountant/business manager? I realize they succeeded with a $2 million run already, but if this gets to $10/$15/$20 million that's a whole different animal (insert requisite frogdog joke). I'm not doubting their passion/talents, but there is a reason people getting certification/training as accountants and then are paid a lot of money by companies for this.

4. The original goal was $100,000. I think it's obvious that it never would have had trouble meeting this goal, but was it actually runable at that small number? All of this seems built on economy of scale, could there have been 20 new narrative sculpts, 12 new expansions, etc. if only 60 people had pledged at the $1,666 level? How have the plans changed now that it is x400 that goal?

5. Finally, and most importantly, how much can be given away as freebies without breaking the bank? I think it's great that Poots clearly wants to reward those who are loyal to his vision, but there have been a scary number of references to his needing to limit access to the highest pledge level, or have his battleship sunk. It would just be such a shame if so much is given away that people don't get what they expect, or that this can't be a hobby that keeps having new material for the next decade or more.

That's my thoughts, thanks in advance for your responses.
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I suspect it's safer than the first KS which was clearly under-financed.

As someone who helped grow a business from scratch to 120 employees and run it for 20 years, I don't think it looks like a very well-run business.

Never-the-less, he managed to survive a difficult start and satisfy a pretty large number of customers. Round 2 looks like it will have 4-5 times the funding for about 2-3 times the total print run (and probably less total design effort), so I'll be surprised if it fails.

If nothing else, he'll have the cash to run it quite a while


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Honestly I'm not sure why people are getting all worked up. It seems to me the major gripe is not getting rewarded for stretch goals after blowing through all the places where those stretch goals were meant to be revealed.

No matter how you cut it, the value of the product you are pledging for is at a discount for what the price will be when you buy it at retail. The additional advantage of course is you won't have to worry about tracking it down and having a hard time finding it.

The KS will deliver the goods. That is obvious. And it will do so at a discount. What is your issue? What is the problem?
 
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Today's update is a perfect example of lessons learned from the first Kickstarter. The Flower Knight expansion went from $15 (with a $30 MSRP) to $40 (with a $60 MSRP). More than doubling the price of an expansion where the major costs (tooling for the molds) have already been covered by the first run shows he is well aware of his margins.
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japester1 wrote:
Today's update is a perfect example of lessons learned from the first Kickstarter. The Flower Knight expansion went from $15 (with a $30 MSRP) to $40 (with a $60 MSRP). More than doubling the price of an expansion where the major costs (tooling for the molds) have already been covered by the first run shows he is well aware of his margins.


I've seen this a couple of times.. I don't know if you can say that tooling for the molds has already been covered. Already paid for? Yes. Already covered? Only Adam knows. With something like that there is a huge initial cost and to cover it you estimate how many you will sell and divide the initial cost among the number of units. This will almost never be covered completely in a first run unless the run has a huge number of units (hundreds of thousands, we are only talking up to 10,000 here). He now has some idea how much those initial costs are though which is why we are seeing more sensible prices for new stuff.
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He also closed the rest of the Satan pledges so besides the additional content for Gambler's box, the number of people getting "free" content is officially capped. He may add more, but based on his comment it seems like he realizes he can't add a ton of stuff and have lots of all inclusive pledges.

BTW my understanding of the first KS was that it was not just an under-priced game; a lot of money was lost in shipping cost that Poots covered himself. With cost being fully paid by the backer here just before delivery, I don't see that being an issue.
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Huger wrote:
Disclaimer: Much of this applies to all Kickstarter projects.

So I think this game looks amazing. It is clear that it is a true passion for the creator and many of the fans. My question/concern is about the feasibility of the finances. I will try to break this down into several main points, which I hope will generate a useful discussions (trying to avoid a lovefest or lots of ragers).

1. My understanding is that the original KS was successful, but for that to happen Poots had to leverage his assets from his entire minatures line. I assume that lessons were learned, but this is a really risky/bad precedent for a business to set.

2. There is no business plan laid out for potential backers. I know this has become the norm for KS, but no small business could get a loan for $7 million+ in any other context without having a huge amount of financial planning/disclosures. I think the debate about how Poots is rolling out info on the product is a bit silly (he clearly has a good grasp that you want to maintain a steady level of hype), but it would be reassuring to have financial plan info up front.

3. Does the creator/company have a good accountant/business manager? I realize they succeeded with a $2 million run already, but if this gets to $10/$15/$20 million that's a whole different animal (insert requisite frogdog joke). I'm not doubting their passion/talents, but there is a reason people getting certification/training as accountants and then are paid a lot of money by companies for this.

4. The original goal was $100,000. I think it's obvious that it never would have had trouble meeting this goal, but was it actually runable at that small number? All of this seems built on economy of scale, could there have been 20 new narrative sculpts, 12 new expansions, etc. if only 60 people had pledged at the $1,666 level? How have the plans changed now that it is x400 that goal?

5. Finally, and most importantly, how much can be given away as freebies without breaking the bank? I think it's great that Poots clearly wants to reward those who are loyal to his vision, but there have been a scary number of references to his needing to limit access to the highest pledge level, or have his battleship sunk. It would just be such a shame if so much is given away that people don't get what they expect, or that this can't be a hobby that keeps having new material for the next decade or more.

That's my thoughts, thanks in advance for your responses.


I want to be extremely clear that, before you read this, you understand that I'm not directing this to you specifically, my intention isn't to chastise or tell you off. Please don't read this as though "you" refers to... you, I guess. I'm trying to tackle the common misconceptions about how Kickstarters work, and how Kingdom Death as a company has gotten the point where they're buried in pledges.

To each point:

1. The original Kickstarter was not a fiasco as much as someone biting off more than they can chew. The base game was priced at $100 for the Kickstarter while the retail ended up being $400. This is likely due to a lack of understanding of the requirements to take such a massive project to production, as well as the fact that Adam is a perfectionist. Its not unusual for a startup to require more funding along the way to production. Plenty of companies fail because of that, and plenty of business owners aren't willing to take the risk. Poots was, and it was to the benefit of us all.

2. As you say, this is completely normal for Kickstarter and board games in particular. Kingdom death is reprinting an existing product so they have the molds, tooling and production resources to get the base game and original expansions out. New game content will need to be created and tested, but that's only the new content. Also, you're pledging for the project, not investing in the company. Their financials are related to their business and not this project, so there's no reason to disclose that.

3. Poots has been running Kingdom Death from before Kingdom Death: Monster was even Kickstarted. They have an established, if niche, business. Scaling from the miniatures company to a board game company was painful, I'm sure. But they've already managed to scale from like no income to 2.5m. They're not scaling from 0 - 10m, and Poots has 4 years of experience doing exactly this.

That said, they probably should bring in an account manager if they don't have one. Not to trivialize it, but board game production isn't nearly as complex as a lot of other businesses once you have your foot in the door. He's got his connections, and already done one production run, so this is basically asking for more of the same thing with more money. That doesn't mean they don't need someone to keep a finger on the pulse of the cash flow, but its much less risky than the first time.

4. I think he underestimates himself and his product, and I think he was being hopeful to reach that 2 mil. From a business perspective, he's already sold something like 10k copies of a niche product and there was the potential that the market was saturated to begin with. Copies stuck around the store for a few months after pledges were fulfilled so it likely seemed that might be the case. There were stretch goals planned and add ons were priced much better than the original campaign. He would have had to scale some things back if the Kickstarter hadn't gone as well, but it did and he already had some stuff planned out to announce. Either way, it doesn't matter at this point.

5. Most people who back a Kickstarter, particularly board gamers, have been spoiled with stretch goals. The idea of a stretch goal is that if the funding is high enough, the price per unit can drop and the overall profit margin will be higher. That means that they can improve the product and hopefully make something closer to their overall vision. The more appealing the product is when its out of the Kickstarter phase the more likely it will sell once it hits market. Thats how it works, not extra shit, not free shit.

A company has to balance all that out in their budget, and Poots has a lot of experience over promising and still fulfilling everything. He's already gotten everything plotted out for this campaign, it just hit higher extremes than he had hoped for. Its in no way his duty to offer more just because his total backing is higher than expected. He still has to deliver everything he would have if the backing was much lower, and the relative cost per unit doesn't drop 1 to 1 with the amount pledged. 10k units might cost exactly the same as 20k units. In theory, freebies would be included in that budget. We haven't seen much of anything as far as unplanned additions. The gamblers chest was planned out, the expansions were planned out. The only thing right now is the Satan expansion. Its his imperative to ensure that he doesn't overcommit and screw himself. But he's done that before and delivered everything still. I would like to think he's figured that out to some extent. Also, if he's worried about the overall cost of the Satan's pledge he's already closed that down, so it shouldn't be a problem as long as he doesn't get pressured into reopening them.


---


To sum up, the core game has already been prepped for reprinting. He mentioned at some point that some parts are already in production. The expansions and the base game are all existing assets and therefore don't require additional expenditure for development. The new content is planned
to release over the course of the next 4 years. Copies of the existing content will hit the shelves before then and provide income. This company has already gone through the teething process before and they have an established product with production experience and existing manufacturing connections. They know their cost per unit on the base game and existing expansions. A key point of this is that, just because they've gotten $7 mil in pledges doesn't mean that they are actually making more money per unit, it just means that they have to deliver more product. It definitely doesn't mean that the company owes its pledgers anything else. Hopefully it means that Poots and co. don't need to eat ramen for the rest of their lives.

Kingdom Death is a business, an independent company with many products. Revenue streams are always mixed, but a Kickstarter is not explicitly an investment in a company, its resources fronted for a project. Those resources are absorbed into the company, mixed with revenue, and at that point its up to the business to manage their financials. Kickstarter supporters are not investors in the tradition sense, we're not a board of directors. The same applies to a business plan; its their place to provide the information they think is necessary to inform the potential pledgers.

Finally, pledging to a Kickstarter is NOT buying anything. You're basically spraying and praying. You're giving a company $1666 to be used toward product development, in good faith that the money will be used to that end. You're not buying anything, and if the company goes under everyone is pretty much fucked. This is often misunderstood and really really is a huge problem for a lot of people. Kickstarter isn't a shop. Not that you feel that way, but probably 75% of pledgers think they're buying something, when really what they're doing is helping a company attempt to provide something. That realization makes people really uncomfortable, and if anyone feels that way the should NOT back a Kickstarter. I personally will never fund a video game because software development is a complete crapshoot when it comes to timelines and budgeting.

This is an amazing product. At the base level, most of the stuff has already been produced before, and their are a lot fewer unplanned freebies than the last campaign. The Ancient Lantern is your best bet with minimum risk. But if you're not comfortable with the idea of handing your money to someone with merely the knowledge of their business and some hope that things will work out, don't back anything ever. Its basically gambling on a business. The game will be available on the shelves after the pledges are delivered, so you can wait until then and not take any risk. But most people don't realize that when you pledge, you're funding a company to try and accomplish something, you're not paying them for a product. Poots managed to pull an enormous success out of his ass last Kickstarter. I would guess that 1/100 companies would have given up the ghost if they hit so many delays and difficulties. But, to me, it really looks like he learned from his mistakes, has a better understanding of cost and timelines, and his biggest struggle will be against untempered expectations from people who don't understand what they're committing to.
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strewart wrote:
japester1 wrote:
Today's update is a perfect example of lessons learned from the first Kickstarter. The Flower Knight expansion went from $15 (with a $30 MSRP) to $40 (with a $60 MSRP). More than doubling the price of an expansion where the major costs (tooling for the molds) have already been covered by the first run shows he is well aware of his margins.


I've seen this a couple of times.. I don't know if you can say that tooling for the molds has already been covered. Already paid for? Yes. Already covered? Only Adam knows. With something like that there is a huge initial cost and to cover it you estimate how many you will sell and divide the initial cost among the number of units. This will almost never be covered completely in a first run unless the run has a huge number of units (hundreds of thousands, we are only talking up to 10,000 here). He now has some idea how much those initial costs are though which is why we are seeing more sensible prices for new stuff.


And its definitely the case that production prices are rising across the board. Hopefully he's future-proofing to some extent. He can always change the prices once they hit the store, though.
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strewart wrote:

I've seen this a couple of times.. I don't know if you can say that tooling for the molds has already been covered. Already paid for? Yes. Already covered? Only Adam knows.


Fair point. I don't know his actual production costs for the rest of the content (artists, paper costs, etc), so you might be right. One might argue that if he had the molds, why would he let the items sell out in the store when there was still demand? But if his capital was drained by the first KS, he might not have had enough to do a full print run of additional miniatures until this KS refilled his capital.

Still, the gist of my comment was that he drastically raised prices on some content this time around (KS backers are paying $10 over the original Flower Knight MSRP, which is still a discount over what store patrons will spend) so he's protecting his margins better. He isn't repeating the same mistakes.
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Huger wrote:
1. My understanding is that the original KS was successful, but for that to happen Poots had to leverage his assets from his entire minatures line. I assume that lessons were learned, but this is a really risky/bad precedent for a business to set.

What you see as a bad precedent, I see as an indication that Poots has the dedication and commitment to the project to see it through. He didn't half-ass it, he didn't rush it, he didn't get halfway through and give up. It took years, and it took a lot more money than planned, and he stuck it out.

I have a great deal of confidence that Poots will deliver.
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tumorous wrote:
Huger wrote:
1. My understanding is that the original KS was successful, but for that to happen Poots had to leverage his assets from his entire minatures line. I assume that lessons were learned, but this is a really risky/bad precedent for a business to set.

What you see as a bad precedent, I see as an indication that Poots has the dedication and commitment to the project to see it through. He didn't half-ass it, he didn't rush it, he didn't get halfway through and give up. It took years, and it took a lot more money than planned, and he stuck it out.

I have a great deal of confidence that Poots will deliver.



This is the only board game Kickstarter I'll likely back. Tried and tested product by a known company that made all the fuck ups ahead of time and came through it. A content developer that honestly astounds me with his capabilities when it comes to creating tight systems and adding new content. Dedication to providing something unique and amazing, with proven experience when it comes to merging creativity and aesthetics. I'm not some fanboy gargling Poots dingle-dongles, I just don't know of board game that actually achieves this amount of variety and continues to be great through 12 expansions. Probably the closes thing would be Pathfinder or DnD tabletop. Its even more impressive considering he royally screwed the frogdog with the first campaign.

I completely agree with the wise and handsome gentleman above.
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ras2124 wrote:
He also closed the rest of the Satan pledges so besides the additional content for Gambler's box, the number of people getting "free" content is officially capped. He may add more, but based on his comment it seems like he realizes he can't add a ton of stuff and have lots of all inclusive pledges.

BTW my understanding of the first KS was that it was not just an under-priced game; a lot of money was lost in shipping cost that Poots covered himself. With cost being fully paid by the backer here just before delivery, I don't see that being an issue.


I hadn't heard the shipping thing. It looks like shipping cost will be charged at the time the item is sent. That's probably why he's been super clear that they're not covering any shipping or VAT
 
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Huger wrote:
Disclaimer: Much of this applies to all Kickstarter projects.

So I think this game looks amazing. It is clear that it is a true passion for the creator and many of the fans. My question/concern is about the feasibility of the finances. I will try to break this down into several main points, which I hope will generate a useful discussions (trying to avoid a lovefest or lots of ragers).

1. My understanding is that the original KS was successful, but for that to happen Poots had to leverage his assets from his entire minatures line. I assume that lessons were learned, but this is a really risky/bad precedent for a business to set.

2. There is no business plan laid out for potential backers. I know this has become the norm for KS, but no small business could get a loan for $7 million+ in any other context without having a huge amount of financial planning/disclosures. I think the debate about how Poots is rolling out info on the product is a bit silly (he clearly has a good grasp that you want to maintain a steady level of hype), but it would be reassuring to have financial plan info up front.

3. Does the creator/company have a good accountant/business manager? I realize they succeeded with a $2 million run already, but if this gets to $10/$15/$20 million that's a whole different animal (insert requisite frogdog joke). I'm not doubting their passion/talents, but there is a reason people getting certification/training as accountants and then are paid a lot of money by companies for this.

4. The original goal was $100,000. I think it's obvious that it never would have had trouble meeting this goal, but was it actually runable at that small number? All of this seems built on economy of scale, could there have been 20 new narrative sculpts, 12 new expansions, etc. if only 60 people had pledged at the $1,666 level? How have the plans changed now that it is x400 that goal?

5. Finally, and most importantly, how much can be given away as freebies without breaking the bank? I think it's great that Poots clearly wants to reward those who are loyal to his vision, but there have been a scary number of references to his needing to limit access to the highest pledge level, or have his battleship sunk. It would just be such a shame if so much is given away that people don't get what they expect, or that this can't be a hobby that keeps having new material for the next decade or more.

That's my thoughts, thanks in advance for your responses.


1) He didn't leverage assets, he reinvested profits.

2) Not happening. The most any accountant would give their blessing to showing off would be a pie chart of broad spending categories.

3) Probably. I think the first kickstarter would have done the company in without one.

4) If only 60 people had backed he would have canceled the project before funding and probably scrapped the reprint. Anything else would have been stupid if that was all the remaining demand for the game there was.

5) He just added a big expensive expansion to that level that wasn't in his previous math and hadn't even been priced out yet. That's always going to be an oh crap sort of thing when you start looking at the numbers. Closing off the levels at very least until the math is done was a smart thing to do.
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cormor321 wrote:
a pie chart of broad spending categories

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jpancier wrote:

Finally, pledging to a Kickstarter is NOT buying anything. You're basically spraying and praying. You're giving a company $1666 to be used toward product development, in good faith that the money will be used to that end. You're not buying anything, and if the company goes under everyone is pretty much fucked. This is often misunderstood and really really is a huge problem for a lot of people. Kickstarter isn't a shop. Not that you feel that way, but probably 75% of pledgers think they're buying something, when really what they're doing is helping a company attempt to provide something. That realization makes people really uncomfortable, and if anyone feels that way the should NOT back a Kickstarter. I personally will never fund a video game because software development is a complete crapshoot when it comes to timelines and budgeting.


Nothing personal but I find it better to draw my own conclusions on how kickstarter rewards work based off of the actual kickstarter TOS.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use?ref=bggforums

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.

The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
 
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I'll limit my reply to the issues where I can say something new:

2. I think revealing a detailed business plan for KDM would be a recipe for disaster. They've been pretty open about the fact that there's a lot of cross-financing going on behind the scenes. For example, we do know that pinup miniatures and sales from the webshop have paid for the fulfillment of part of the first KS. In other words, if we look at the whole spectrum of KDM products, some are over- and some are underpriced. If they released any details about that, as a business plan would imply, I would expect substantial backlash from customers who feel like they're treated unfairly because the products they're interested in pay for products they're not interested in (and of course that's exactly the customers who contribute the most to KDM's profit margin).

4. In my opinion, the discrepancy between the stated funding goal and the actually intended funding goal is one of the biggest problems of (mostly the miniature-heavy) boardgames on Kickstarter. I'm talking about campaigns that rest on pledge levels that already anticipate hithero unrevealed stretch goals (and add-ons, expansions, whatever) and don't make sense without funding in excess of the stated goal. At least to my understanding, if stretch goals aren't optional but required (because "all-in" pledge levels don't make sense without them), they should be seen as part of the funding goal. Everything else is just showmanship. In this sense, even though the response may have been exceptionally high, I really doubt that the creator expected anything less than a substantial increase over the funding during the last KS (including late pledges)... in other words, I think we're (currently) looking not so much at x400 of the actual funding goal but more something like x4.

5. I have to admit... I don't really worry about the company at this point. They are selling the board game on top of BGG's Hotness list for 200-250$, as well as miniatures for 15-25$ apiece and expansions for the price of a regular full-priced game. Even if you take excellent production quality into account, those are hardly ruinous price points.
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Paraphrasing the TOS wrote:
If a creator fails to deliver, he has to:

post an update;
say that he tried his bestest!
"demonstrate" that he didn't squander the money on pizza and booze;
not blatantly lie;
return all of the $0 that are left to the backers.

If he doesn't do this, backers can try and sue him... but KS won't do jack shit.


So, basically what jpancier wrote, right?


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japester1 wrote:
strewart wrote:

I've seen this a couple of times.. I don't know if you can say that tooling for the molds has already been covered. Already paid for? Yes. Already covered? Only Adam knows.


Fair point. I don't know his actual production costs for the rest of the content (artists, paper costs, etc), so you might be right. One might argue that if he had the molds, why would he let the items sell out in the store when there was still demand? But if his capital was drained by the first KS, he might not have had enough to do a full print run of additional miniatures until this KS refilled his capital.

Still, the gist of my comment was that he drastically raised prices on some content this time around (KS backers are paying $10 over the original Flower Knight MSRP, which is still a discount over what store patrons will spend) so he's protecting his margins better. He isn't repeating the same mistakes.


Well as a small company he needs to consider future demand and cost of keeping inventory in his warehouse (plus the international ones now!). The dragon king sold out very fast but I believe all the others stayed in stock for a fair while and even the core game stayed in stock for a fair while. Its hard to justify the huge cost of another print run if sales are fairly slow, plus I know at least the plastics are made by a company that services quite a few miniature companies and you can't just say give me another few thousand copies of this sprue! It needs to be booked into their schedule with a fair bit of time. All the time input required as well needs to be balanced against time spent designing and making new content.

As to the original KS MSRP, you can't really take that at any kind of value since everything changed so much since then. It was originally going to be PVC not hard plastic which is a lot cheaper to produce, and original scope was for a fair bit less content than ended up in there. In fact even before they got anywhere near retail the price in the original pledge manager went up as he started making stuff and realised how much it would all cost. So yes you're right he is protecting himself better now but I still don't see how he won't lose money on all of the Satan pledges to be honest.
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strewart wrote:
japester1 wrote:
strewart wrote:

I've seen this a couple of times.. I don't know if you can say that tooling for the molds has already been covered. Already paid for? Yes. Already covered? Only Adam knows.


Fair point. I don't know his actual production costs for the rest of the content (artists, paper costs, etc), so you might be right. One might argue that if he had the molds, why would he let the items sell out in the store when there was still demand? But if his capital was drained by the first KS, he might not have had enough to do a full print run of additional miniatures until this KS refilled his capital.

Still, the gist of my comment was that he drastically raised prices on some content this time around (KS backers are paying $10 over the original Flower Knight MSRP, which is still a discount over what store patrons will spend) so he's protecting his margins better. He isn't repeating the same mistakes.


Well as a small company he needs to consider future demand and cost of keeping inventory in his warehouse (plus the international ones now!). The dragon king sold out very fast but I believe all the others stayed in stock for a fair while and even the core game stayed in stock for a fair while. Its hard to justify the huge cost of another print run if sales are fairly slow, plus I know at least the plastics are made by a company that services quite a few miniature companies and you can't just say give me another few thousand copies of this sprue! It needs to be booked into their schedule with a fair bit of time. All the time input required as well needs to be balanced against time spent designing and making new content.

As to the original KS MSRP, you can't really take that at any kind of value since everything changed so much since then. It was originally going to be PVC not hard plastic which is a lot cheaper to produce, and original scope was for a fair bit less content than ended up in there. In fact even before they got anywhere near retail the price in the original pledge manager went up as he started making stuff and realised how much it would all cost. So yes you're right he is protecting himself better now but I still don't see how he won't lose money on all of the Satan pledges to be honest.


Well he won't be paying shipping on them for one thing.

The Satan pledges can best be described in my opinion as marketing. The people that own these are going to show them off as much as possible. They will pay for themselves in free advertising.
 
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KevBelisle wrote:
Paraphrasing the TOS wrote:
If a creator fails to deliver, he has to:

post an update;
say that he tried his bestest!
"demonstrate" that he didn't squander the money on pizza and booze;
not blatantly lie;
return all of the $0 that are left to the backers.

If he doesn't do this, backers can try and sue him... but KS won't do jack shit.


So, basically what jpancier wrote, right?


whistle


Lol. I wish I had just said that.
 
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strewart wrote:

So yes you're right he is protecting himself better now but I still don't see how he won't lose money on all of the Satan pledges to be honest.


The way he protects himself is he doesn't release some planned but still unrevealed expansions and/or increases the price points. You might have noticed the flower knight and frogdog weren't straight 50% off MSRP as the previous expansions were.

So my guess is Poots is doing the math and making subtle adjustments to make sure the math (i.e. money) works out.
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VeganGuy wrote:
strewart wrote:

So yes you're right he is protecting himself better now but I still don't see how he won't lose money on all of the Satan pledges to be honest.


The way he protects himself is he doesn't release some planned but still unrevealed expansions and/or increases the price points. You might have noticed the flower knight and frogdog weren't straight 50% off MSRP as the previous expansions were.

So my guess is Poots is doing the math and making subtle adjustments to make sure the math (i.e. money) works out.


The biggest difference between this kickstarter and the previous one is that he's doing math this time.
 
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strewart wrote:
japester1 wrote:
strewart wrote:

I've seen this a couple of times.. I don't know if you can say that tooling for the molds has already been covered. Already paid for? Yes. Already covered? Only Adam knows.


Fair point. I don't know his actual production costs for the rest of the content (artists, paper costs, etc), so you might be right. One might argue that if he had the molds, why would he let the items sell out in the store when there was still demand? But if his capital was drained by the first KS, he might not have had enough to do a full print run of additional miniatures until this KS refilled his capital.

Still, the gist of my comment was that he drastically raised prices on some content this time around (KS backers are paying $10 over the original Flower Knight MSRP, which is still a discount over what store patrons will spend) so he's protecting his margins better. He isn't repeating the same mistakes.


Well as a small company he needs to consider future demand and cost of keeping inventory in his warehouse (plus the international ones now!). The dragon king sold out very fast but I believe all the others stayed in stock for a fair while and even the core game stayed in stock for a fair while. Its hard to justify the huge cost of another print run if sales are fairly slow, plus I know at least the plastics are made by a company that services quite a few miniature companies and you can't just say give me another few thousand copies of this sprue! It needs to be booked into their schedule with a fair bit of time. All the time input required as well needs to be balanced against time spent designing and making new content.

As to the original KS MSRP, you can't really take that at any kind of value since everything changed so much since then. It was originally going to be PVC not hard plastic which is a lot cheaper to produce, and original scope was for a fair bit less content than ended up in there. In fact even before they got anywhere near retail the price in the original pledge manager went up as he started making stuff and realised how much it would all cost. So yes you're right he is protecting himself better now but I still don't see how he won't lose money on all of the Satan pledges to be honest.


Yeah, I think the Satan's pledge levels were put together as a thank you to anyone who was willing to put so much trust (and money) into the project. he had probably intended to keep them limited to 1000 but was caught up in everything and reopened the level without taking the cost into account.
 
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