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Subject: Why the 18xx connection? rss

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Bruce Murphy
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Could someone explain why this title is listed in the 18xx family?

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JR
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I was kind of wondering the same thing. It seems that it just has share trading and dividends in common, but I considered that no one seemed to balk at Rolling Stock being in the family so was hoping to see some rules posted for this.
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jrebelo wrote:
I was kind of wondering the same thing. It seems that it just has share trading and dividends in common, but I considered that no one seemed to balk at Rolling Stock being in the family so was hoping to see some rules posted for this.


That's what I see. I think the real question nobody's asking is why isn't 504 listed under 18xx? It has a module that includes shares...
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J C Lawrence
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It is difficult to come up with a clean objective definition of an "18xx". For the nonce I'm most tempted to use it for games that are manifestly similar to and clearly direct descendants of 1829. A possibly suitable litmus test is whether they reasonably owe Francis Tresham a designer credit: 1829-like games with credits to Francis are 18xx, and the rest aren't 18xx.

Notably that working definition excludes Rolling Stock, which I tend to think of it as an 18xx, however it includes Harzbahn 1873 which the designer is most insistent is not an 18xx. But is seems pretty workable rule of thumb.

Its tough to say for this game without seeing the rules, however first impressions are not something I'd consider 18xx-like, let alone 1829-like.
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Christopher M
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You may want to edit the entry to remove the 18xx family.
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Raymond Chandler III
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The short answer is that the feel of the game is very much in the 18xx style. The stock rules, and general economic engine is that of an 18xx game (in particular 1846). There's no trains and there's no track. Other than that it very strongly mirrors other 18xx games, in both feel and mechanics.

Once you see the rules and play the game, you'll see what I mean.
 
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J C Lawrence
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Are the rules awaiting file moderation?
 
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Bruce Murphy
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kitanata wrote:
The short answer is that the feel of the game is very much in the 18xx style. The stock rules, and general economic engine is that of an 18xx game (in particular 1846). There's no trains and theres no track. Other than that it very strongly mirrors other 18xx games, in both feel and mechanics.

Once you see the rules and play the game, you'll see what I mean.


1846 doesn't feel much like an 18xx. To the edits!

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Raymond Chandler III
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clearclaw wrote:
Are the rules awaiting file moderation?


PnP rules are being finalized and cleaned up. I wasn't expecting this game to get the attention it's getting, so I'm playing a bit of catch up. Should have them available very soon though.
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kitanata wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
Are the rules awaiting file moderation?


PnP rules are being finalized and cleaned up. I wasn't expecting this game to get the attention it's getting, so I'm playing a bit of catch up. Should have them available very soon though.


Adding the 18xx family tag means every time some content is added you ping out a subscription notification to everyone who is subbed to the 18xx family, that's going to draw a fair amount of attention.
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Alex P
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He didn't think there were enough people in the subscription list to matter, obviously.
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Igor Kaplounenko
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FWIW I kind of appreciate finding out about this game through the tag, even if the tag is possibly not accurate. If Rolling Stock is 18xx (and I think it is), maybe this is also.
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J C Lawrence
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Without commenting on this game in particular, there's a significant value in not diluting definitions.
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Bruce Murphy
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kitanata wrote:
The short answer is that the feel of the game is very much in the 18xx style. The stock rules, and general economic engine is that of an 18xx game (in particular 1846)


Snowball economics and stock rules dont' seem to qualify something as xx. How many heavy economic games with stock have you actually played?

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8-bit Matt
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Looking forward to reading the rules!

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Christian Moura
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clearclaw wrote:

Notably that working definition excludes Rolling Stock, which I tend to think of it as an 18xx


Back in 2011....

clearclaw wrote:
18Card is really not an 18xx or anything particularly close to an 18xx.


https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/66072/item/1635513#item16...

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J C Lawrence
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Yep. My view has adjusted a bit over the years. In particular I've played, designed and thought rather a lot more of the 18xx since then.
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J C Lawrence
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Having now read the posted rules, I would not describe this game as an 18xx or 18xx-like. Ignoring the very large in-game randomness, there is no apparent way for companies to trade assets or to otherwise assist or deter each other except via action exclusion (X did Y so Z can't). As such the core fluidity of assets and positions, the liquidity between companies, is not present. More critically, especially for the claim of being an 18xx, there's no creative destruction -- no equivalent of train rusting -- just of isolated asset efficiency and of efficiency of the player (via the director's mechanism) and not the company itself in appreciating those assets. The rest, the markets for stock and appeal...appears a bolt-on. The result would seem a eurogame-style action-choice investment-efficiency game dominated by the very large size of the director's certificates and a very low paper limit (that also doesn't show signs of having been played with misère players).

Amusingly, supporting the above, company dumps and takeovers are never mentioned.
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Igor Kaplounenko
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It appears to be a game that scratches some similar itches as an 18xx, in the vein of Chicago Express or Imperial.

But yes, ultimately, no "rusting" mechanism of any sort, no transferring assets, and no way to ever change company ownership (Director's Certificate can never be sold or transferred afaict) makes this not an 18xx.
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Raymond Chandler III
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clearclaw wrote:
Having now read the posted rules, I would not describe this game as an 18xx or 18xx-like. Ignoring the very large in-game randomness, there is no apparent way for companies to trade assets or to otherwise assist or deter each other except via action exclusion (X did Y so Z can't). As such the core fluidity of assets and positions, the liquidity between companies, is not present. More critically, especially for the claim of being an 18xx, there's no creative destruction -- no equivalent of train rusting -- just of isolated asset efficiency and of efficiency of the player (via the director's mechanism) and not the company itself in appreciating those assets. The rest, the markets for stock and appeal...appears a bolt-on. The result would seem a eurogame-style action-choice investment-efficiency game dominated by the very large size of the director's certificates and a very low paper limit (that also doesn't show signs of having been played with misère players).

Amusingly, supporting the above, company dumps and takeovers are never mentioned.


J C, these are all very good points. Thank you for the feedback.

Our goal with this game is to provide an 18xx feel for players who are turned off by 18xx games either because A) They are afraid of the brutality that can accompany learning 18xx (dumping of a company, train rushes, etc), or B) because they are intimidated by the math, or C) they are intimidated by the game length.

So, in search of meeting those goals we made guided design decisions to address these concerns in players. Our hope is that this game can provide a bridge between Euro games and the 18xx genre. We want to show players who would otherwise not be inclined to play an 18xx game, what the 18xx experience is.

To address game length concerns we put the game on a set timer of six rounds, and capped the entire play length to 2 and half hours.

To address the brutality, (i.e. make a kindler gentler introduction into the series), we removed the ability to dump companies or takeover companies.

To address the mathy concerns we made game predictions based on math easier to calculate. i.e No train rush. Smaller numbers. Easier calculations.

That said, we will have an option for an "Advanced Variant" that both introduces the rusting of Capital Assets, and that allows for the transfer of the Director's Certificate.

City of the Big Shoulders may not scratch a specific itch that you have with 18xx. It is certainly not a complex 18xx game like 62, 17 or OE but I think that if you give it a play, you'll see that it feels very much like an 18xx game.

Our hope is that this game will be a game people can point to that fits a gap between Euro and the kindler gentler 18xx introduction games like 1889, 18AL, and 1830.

Haven't you ever wondered what was going on in Chicago while you were desperately trying to get Grand Trunk a station there in 1846?

Cheers,
Raymond
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Toby Mao
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kitanata wrote:

Our goal with this game is to provide an 18xx feel for players who are turned off by 18xx games either because A) They are afraid of the brutality that can accompany learning 18xx (dumping of a company, train rushes, etc), or B) because they are intimidated by the math, or C) they are intimidated by the game length.

So, in search of meeting those goals we made guided design decisions to address these concerns in players. Our hope is that this game can provide a bridge between Euro games and the 18xx genre. We want to show players who would otherwise not be inclined to play an 18xx game, what the 18xx experience is.


But the brutality of the train rush / company dumps and the mathiness is what attracted me to 18xx. I feel like it is a big part of what the experience is! So I'm not too sure how much I'll like a game with all my favorite parts stripped out Is a Snickers Bar still a chocolate bar if you remove the chocolate?
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Raymond Chandler III
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captaintobs wrote:
kitanata wrote:

Our goal with this game is to provide an 18xx feel for players who are turned off by 18xx games either because A) They are afraid of the brutality that can accompany learning 18xx (dumping of a company, train rushes, etc), or B) because they are intimidated by the math, or C) they are intimidated by the game length.

So, in search of meeting those goals we made guided design decisions to address these concerns in players. Our hope is that this game can provide a bridge between Euro games and the 18xx genre. We want to show players who would otherwise not be inclined to play an 18xx game, what the 18xx experience is.


But the brutality of the train rush / company dumps and the mathiness is what attracted me to 18xx. I feel like it is a big part of what the experience is! So I'm not too sure how much I'll like a game with all my favorite parts stripped out Is a Snickers Bar still a chocolate bar if you remove the chocolate?


You would be a perfect playtester for this game. One of the things we want to do to add replay value is to take the training wheels off (Advanced Rules/Variant) and let players open themselves to a more brutal and truer experience once they get a hang of the game. We have some ideas on how to do this (rusting of Capital Assets, Takeovers and Company dumping), but we haven't yet tested this throughly. Your feedback here would be really valuable in helping us establish that.

Is that something you might be interested in? If so, the PnP is only around 40 pages and most of the cuts down the pages are right down the middle. It doesn't take a lot of time to put together. I would love to give you some modified rules to try out something on the more advanced side for this game.

I promise you, we are listening and we'll take your feedback seriously.

Cheers,
Raymond
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Toby Mao
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kitanata wrote:
captaintobs wrote:
kitanata wrote:

Our goal with this game is to provide an 18xx feel for players who are turned off by 18xx games either because A) They are afraid of the brutality that can accompany learning 18xx (dumping of a company, train rushes, etc), or B) because they are intimidated by the math, or C) they are intimidated by the game length.

So, in search of meeting those goals we made guided design decisions to address these concerns in players. Our hope is that this game can provide a bridge between Euro games and the 18xx genre. We want to show players who would otherwise not be inclined to play an 18xx game, what the 18xx experience is.


But the brutality of the train rush / company dumps and the mathiness is what attracted me to 18xx. I feel like it is a big part of what the experience is! So I'm not too sure how much I'll like a game with all my favorite parts stripped out Is a Snickers Bar still a chocolate bar if you remove the chocolate?


You would be a perfect playtester for this game. One of the things we want to do to add replay value is to take the training wheels off (Advanced Rules/Variant) and let players open themselves to a more brutal and truer experience once they get a hang of the game. We have some ideas on how to do this (rusting of Capital Assets, Takeovers and Company dumping), but we haven't yet tested this throughly. Your feedback here would be really valuable in helping us establish that.

Is that something you might be interested in? If so, the PnP is only around 40 pages and most of the cuts down the pages are right down the middle. It doesn't take a lot of time to put together. I would love to give you some modified rules to try out something on the more advanced side for this game.

I promise you, we are listening and we'll take your feedback seriously.

Cheers,
Raymond


I'm in the play testing group and received the initial components. I will gladly take the advanced / modified rules. Hopefully I'll have some time to play it over the holidays.
 
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jim b
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Quite a few games incorporate 18xx elements without being in the 18xx family: the pick-up-and-deliver train games (Age of Steam, Steam, Railways of the World, ..), and many Winsome games come immediately to mind.

None of those are in the 18xx family on bgg- and their designers don't consider them 18xx games.

I suspect you'll get more value & focus from initial playtesters & reviewers if you don't misrepresent the game- it will be a distraction.
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Raymond Chandler III
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captaintobs wrote:
kitanata wrote:
captaintobs wrote:
kitanata wrote:

Our goal with this game is to provide an 18xx feel for players who are turned off by 18xx games either because A) They are afraid of the brutality that can accompany learning 18xx (dumping of a company, train rushes, etc), or B) because they are intimidated by the math, or C) they are intimidated by the game length.

So, in search of meeting those goals we made guided design decisions to address these concerns in players. Our hope is that this game can provide a bridge between Euro games and the 18xx genre. We want to show players who would otherwise not be inclined to play an 18xx game, what the 18xx experience is.


But the brutality of the train rush / company dumps and the mathiness is what attracted me to 18xx. I feel like it is a big part of what the experience is! So I'm not too sure how much I'll like a game with all my favorite parts stripped out Is a Snickers Bar still a chocolate bar if you remove the chocolate?


You would be a perfect playtester for this game. One of the things we want to do to add replay value is to take the training wheels off (Advanced Rules/Variant) and let players open themselves to a more brutal and truer experience once they get a hang of the game. We have some ideas on how to do this (rusting of Capital Assets, Takeovers and Company dumping), but we haven't yet tested this throughly. Your feedback here would be really valuable in helping us establish that.

Is that something you might be interested in? If so, the PnP is only around 40 pages and most of the cuts down the pages are right down the middle. It doesn't take a lot of time to put together. I would love to give you some modified rules to try out something on the more advanced side for this game.

I promise you, we are listening and we'll take your feedback seriously.

Cheers,
Raymond


I'm in the play testing group and received the initial components. I will gladly take the advanced / modified rules. Hopefully I'll have some time to play it over the holidays.


Awesome! I will write something up this weekend, and send it over to you through BGG email.
 
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