Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Pax Romana» Forums » Rules

Subject: Further clarification: Amphibious attacks rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Greg Cox
Australia
Petersham
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
The rule for amphibious attacks states:

"The transported Land units may continue moving and may even conduct other Naval Transport missions in the same Activation, if they have the MP to do so. They may even conduct another Naval Transport mission
using the stopped Galley Squadrons (if any were in the
Fleet) as escorts (thereby allowing those GS to move more
than once in the Activation)."

1. Does this mean that if you fail a continuity roll and have to conduct an amphibious attack you can then move on to the next enemy occupied port and either: attempt a continuity roll past that port or an amphibious attack against the units in that port, assuming you still have enough MP to move on to the next port which is empty?

2. In regards to the above, what exactly is the MP requirement if you wanted to attack a port which has occupied ports next to it in the line of movement? For instance, if you wanted to attack Thapsus from Lilybeum, and Carthage and Thapsus are occupied by enemy units, and the next port on, Leptis is unoccupied, how many MP points would you need to attack Thapsus? I believe you would need 7MP is that correct?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
coxy_fc wrote:

1. Does this mean that if you fail a continuity roll and have to conduct an amphibious attack you can then move on to the next enemy occupied port and either: attempt a continuity roll past that port or an amphibious attack against the units in that port, assuming you still have enough MP to move on to the next port which is empty?


If your attack succeeds and you land in the port, then you can continue on if you have the MP, even by naval transport - you just have to pay 1 MP to embark, 1 MP to sail, and so forth. Otherwise, you cannot pass through the space even if it is to an empty space. You always need to retreat towards the point of entry if your attack fails.

Now you could move out of the space (back the way you came), make a continuation roll there (if necessary) and return to the space you just attacked, and attempt a new continuation roll to sneak past, but you cannot try a new continuation roll while you are in the port! This has implications when you have multiple occupied cities that helps you sort out an illegal move - explained below.

coxy_fc wrote:

2. In regards to the above, what exactly is the MP requirement if you wanted to attack a port which has occupied ports next to it in the line of movement? For instance, if you wanted to attack Thapsus from Lilybeum, and Carthage and Thapsus are occupied by enemy units, and the next port on, Leptis is unoccupied, how many MP points would you need to attack Thapsus? I believe you would need 7MP is that correct?


It would be 4 if you succeeded the first time and got past the port via continuation roll.

It would be 7 if you failed in the first attack (4 used), sailed back (+1, so 5 now) through the space you came to the previous port, passed a continuation roll, passed the continuation roll in the previously attacked space, and then landed in the next port (+2, so now 7).

Note that if you perform an Amphibious Attack and you fail to take the space in the first attempt, you may also attack again at a cost of 2 MP. You may continue doing so as long as you have enough MP, but if you fail to take the space, you MUST have enough MP remaining to sail somewhere else (1 MP) and debark. (1 MP, or if armies are present, 2 MP). Thus, if you have only 2 MP left and are surrounded by hostile ports, you can no longer attack.

--- Warning --- What follows is not an official rule, but a way to keep game revisionism to a minimum. Game revisionism is when you need to redo something because an illegal move has occurred and it is the cancer of online PBEM games. This is the rule in all of my games:

At any point in an activation, if a player is reduced to 3 MP or less and attempts to sail on (for example, if MP are spent during a long naval operation before and the player is stuck - I will show an example in a moment) and fails a continuation roll at a space where there are enemy units, the entire move is illegal. If there is ever an illegal naval transport movement, the units return to the port of origin (all combat losses are undone) and those forces (or any subset or superset of those forces!) in the port may not conduct any naval movement this activation.

Here is an example:

An army with 1 LI is attempting to move past 3 spaces by sea. It has 6 MP and spends 1 to embark and 1 to sail. In the first space is a garrison. In the third space is a garrison. In the middle space are 2 LI. The army succeeds in the first continuation roll and fails the second continuation roll, forcing an attack. Miraculously, though, it suffers no losses and inflicts a loss of 1 LI on the defender, but 2 MP are consumed. Now with its final 2 MP it will try to sail away (1 MP) and return home, but it fails a continuation roll (in space one). It has only 1 MP left, however, so it cannot even attack the garrison. In this case, the entire move is undone and the lost LI is restored to the defender. The same force is still activated with the same MP, but may not engage in naval transport.

The reason is that otherwise the player could keep trying illegal moves until they succeeded.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Actually your example is illustrative of how an illegal move could happen:

Quote:
In regards to the above, what exactly is the MP requirement if you wanted to attack a port which has occupied ports next to it in the line of movement? For instance, if you wanted to attack Thapsus from Lilybeum, and Carthage and Thapsus are occupied by enemy units, and the next port on, Leptis is unoccupied, how many MP points would you need to attack Thapsus? I believe you would need 7MP is that correct?


Let us suppose that Lilybaeum is occupied by the aggressor, so in that case you wouldn't need to make a continuation roll.

Let's say you have 7 MP.

You embark from Lilybaeum and sail (2 MP).

You arrive in Carthage and roll to continue and fail, so you must attack. (4 MP now). You fail to take Carthage. You must sail back to Lilybaeum You are returned to Lilybaeum, the point from which you attacked. Now at Lilybaeum you have 3 MP left and you do not have to debark, so you can move back to Carthage by paying 1 MP to sail. You have 2 left now.

Now let's say you make your continuation roll.

You get to Thapsus. You attack. You fail. You have no MP left and you cannot legally move anywhere. You are not allowed to attempt to move past an occupied space by sea if you do not have movement points to do so (11.34). This is exactly your situation once you are placed back in Carthage.

Therefore, your move is illegal.

In this case, the referee could choose to put you in Lilybaeum with 7 MP, reversing all losses or 2 MP and maintaining the losses. My choice is to give you 7 MP and say you can't move those forces by sea this activation anymore.

ed: correction (see strikeout) to be consistent with the example. Italics is new text.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Randall
Canada
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Thanks, Michael.

I like your anti-revisionist rule, by the way.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are a few times that the referee has to have fun too, Neil! In one situation, I loved being able to point to the FAQ that I give out before the game, and saying, "See?"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Cox
Australia
Petersham
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
mgringo wrote:
Actually your example is illustrative of how an illegal move could happen:

You arrive in Carthage and roll to continue and fail, so you must attack. (4 MP now). You fail to take Carthage. You must sail back to Lilybaeum (5 MP now). Now at Lilybaeum you have 2 MP left and you do not have to debark, so you can move back to Carthage.


Sorry, maybe I'm not reading you right, but why would you need 1MP to move back to Lilybeum and not debark? You would already have paid 1MP to sail and don't pay anymore MP until landing/debarking. You also can't move back to Lilybeum turn around and try a continuity roll again.

Anyway, I assume you would need at least 7MP to attack Thapsus in the above example assuming you passed the first continuity roll (ie Carthage). 1MP to debark, 1MP sail, 2MP amphibious attack if carthage cont roll fails, 2MP amphib attack Thapsus (no continuity roll stopping to attack?), + 1MP to debark Leptis (next empty port) if required.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
coxy_fc wrote:

Sorry, maybe I'm not reading you right, but why would you need 1MP to move back to Lilybeum and not debark? You would already have paid 1MP to sail and don't pay anymore MP until landing/debarking. You also can't move back to Lilybeum turn around and try a continuity roll again.


Sorry, I thought there was an NTP there. You don't need to spend the 1 MP to sail to Lilybaeum, but you would have to spend 1 MP to sail anywhere else.

After the failed invasion, you must pay 1 MP to sail again. The attempt to debark in Carthage/Thapsus means you need to pay 1 MP to sail again - since the sailing ends when you stop. You stopped when you failed the continuation roll - Finished. Thus, to sail, you must pay 1 MP to sail.

Remember when an attack fails (any attack) you are always moved back to the point from which you attacked. If it were an NTP, that is where you would be, but in your case, you return to Lilybaeum, but you have not yet landed. You still must pay 1 MP to debark. You can pay 1 MP to sail and you could choose to move again to Lilybaeum and try again.

coxy_fc wrote:


Anyway, I assume you would need at least 7MP to attack Thapsus in the above example assuming you passed the first continuity roll (ie Carthage). 1MP to debark, 1MP sail, 2MP amphibious attack if carthage cont roll fails, 2MP amphib attack Thapsus (no continuity roll stopping to attack?), + 1MP to debark Leptis (next empty port) if required.


The problem here is that you are failing to take Carthage after stopping and then moving through the space. Let's start at the beginning:

1 MP to embark
1 MP to sail
2 MP against carthage.

If successful and you land, you must pay 1 MP to embark and 1 MP to sail. If you are unsuccessful, you must move back to the point from which you attacked, and you need to pay 1 MP to sail away as far as you like as long as you make continuation rolls. By failing the continuation roll, you ended your free sailing. That's what "Finished" means!

You cannot ever sail through the space after failing to take the space. Like in a land attack, you are returned to the space from which you entered to start sailing again. If it is a friendly space, you could just land for an expense of 1 MP, but you are free to sail again if you spend 1 MP more.

Remember, you can never lose a battle and move through the space that you were attacking. In Pax victory is largely determined by possession of the space. You can take the space by eliminating the defender and occupying it or forcing the defender to withdraw. That doesn't work so well against a city though. LOL!

This was discussed on Consimworld a while back. Essentially, the key points to remember is that:

1. You need to sail again if you are stopped.
2. When you fail to take a space you move back to the point from which you attacked and need to use MP again.
3. You cannot move through a space that you do not control - except by sea by passing a continuation roll.

Your example of moving through Carthage after failing to take it breaks all three of these rules.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Cox
Australia
Petersham
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Ok thanks for that. I think the rules need to be re-written/simplified on this point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey, it's a pleasure, Greg! I'm glad you are having fun with this game - it's a huge favorite of mine.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Cox
Australia
Petersham
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Hi Michael, Yes I love the game but I can't seem to quite 'get' a number of rules like you do. In fact some rules, like 'amphibious attacks', or 1Mp to pick-up, 0MP to drop-off, and changes to rules on town walls, etc, are slowly driving me crazy!cry
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon H
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
There should definitely be some examples of this in the playbook. I'm very glad I'm reading about these resolutions now, rather than trying to work them out 'round the table'!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael @mgouker
United States
Pembroke Pines
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
coxy_fc wrote:
Hi Michael, Yes I love the game but I can't seem to quite 'get' a number of rules like you do. In fact some rules, like 'amphibious attacks', or 1Mp to pick-up, 0MP to drop-off, and changes to rules on town walls, etc, are slowly driving me crazy!cry


I guess it doesn't help you guys to know this, but once you know the rules, they do make a lot of sense! LOL!!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–14)
badge
https://spanishpolice.github.io
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe I'm repeating something said elsewhere, but I guess that a rule here could be that if you don't have the minimum MP you can't make the naval movement. If you have the minimum MP you can do it but after failing continuation AND losing the field battle, you must get back to the departing port, rolling for possible failed continuation and field battles in every port between.

So, crossing non-occuppied enemy ports has no additional cost (if you fail the continuation roll you stop there and check if you can reembark again; your movement is legal). For every enemy occuppied port you have to add 2MP to ensure any forced field battle. The moment you fail a continuation, you will be forced to return to the original embarkation port (as you have reserve MP you can afford it) or, if you win a field battle and force the defenders out, just stay there.

If you don't have enough MP to ensure this 'port backtracing', then you cannot do the naval movement in the first instance:
- 3 MP for the naval transport (1 embark + 1 sail + 1 disembark).
- +2 MP for each enemy-occupied port.
- if you fail ANY continuation you won't reach destination (you MUST change plans) and you will finish either in the embarkation port or somwhere in between where you dislodge the defenders.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Randall
Canada
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Marti, that's correct. The only change I'd make is to your second sentence - you never have to get back to the departing port, only to a port of any kind that you can stay in.

That said, this has clearly been the most frustrating rule for a number of players, so I'm very seriously considering simplifying it a lot in the second edition (if it happens). The rule was initially designed to prevent suicide amphibious assaults, but I can no longer remember why we thought it important to do that - if a player wants to risk an entire army this way, who are we to say no?

Michael Gouker would (I think I have this right) simply like to leave fleets out in the sea if they don't make it. I'd be more inclined to sink them outright. Any thoughts on this?

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.