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Subject: Looking at the broader societal failings underlying Trump's election rss

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This looks likely to have taken decades of systemic societal failures to bring a rich, educated, well-fed, secure nation with a proud past to this.

Anyone here found analysis along these lines?

 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Pinook wrote:
This looks likely to have taken decades of systemic societal failures to bring a rich, educated, well-fed, secure nation with a proud past to this.

Anyone here found analysis along these lines?



Systemic societal failures?

How about systemic political failures?

Politics is society!

Society is a community and everything the community involves (culture, religion and things such as social class). Society is organised by politics. Politics in a society deal with disagreements or conflicts. Within a society, there will always be different groups with different opinions, and something is needed to make sure these groups are able to co-exist. This is politics. Politics is needed to decide who in a society should hold authority over the other people in a society (i.e. the allocation of authority).

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American's are inherently uninterested in anything that isn't shinny. Actually paying attention takes effort. IF DJT is an epic fail I'm hoping that it's a wake up call. Pavlovian responses to an inner rage meter isn't a real solution. I am an optimist about the human race overall. I have to be or life would be intolerably depressing.
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Drew makes a good point--much of what has gone so wrong involves churches. Anyone have insight into how they've changed over the past forty years or so?
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Chris Binkowski
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rinelk wrote:
Drew makes a good point--much of what has gone so wrong involves churches. Anyone have insight into how they've changed over the past forty years or so?


I have some:

"He must increase, but I must decrease.” John 3:30
 
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What failed in society was the capitalist system, not politics or everyday culture (as defined earlier), and certainly not by the two terms served by Obama. The great implosion of manufacturing in the US started back in the late 1960s and was pretty well done by the 1980s. Lots of factors go into this -- certainly trade deals with other countries provided some impetus, but the real issues were the failure of most corporate heads and company presidents to modernize and make more efficient mills and factories across the US (not just in the Midwest -- NYC and LA-LA got smacked just as hard as Omaha), plus the emerging dependence on "college educated" business managers. The last factor sounds as if it should be positive, but it was quite negative. Emphasis on quarterly progress instead of overall progress and profit, the great emphasis on improved returns for investors and stock holders instead of on workers and their conditions -- all of this is taught at the nation's best business administration colleges. And none of it involves being actually familiar with the work being done or the product being sold*.

Plus, there was a great societal shift in accepting more minorities as equal, women as equal, a more sexually-open society, and the increased shift of population from rural areas to urban areas.

All of this made a lot of people nervous, not sure where they stood after centuries of class structure went out the window.

Probably not what the OP wanted to hear. TFB.
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
American's are inherently uninterested in anything that isn't shinny. Actually paying attention takes effort. IF DJT is an epic fail I'm hoping that it's a wake up call.


8 years of Obama was the wake-up call. Americans decided they'd take a chance on Donald Trump(!) rather than put up with four more years of Democrat party tyranny.

"As any trader will tell you, if you are stuck lower, you want volatility, uncertainty. No matter how it comes."



Obama's current approval rating 54%... Trump 41%. HRC one of the shitiest candidates in American history got around 3 million more votes... sure Drew whatever you say.
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rcbevco wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
American's are inherently uninterested in anything that isn't shinny. Actually paying attention takes effort. IF DJT is an epic fail I'm hoping that it's a wake up call.


8 years of Obama was the wake-up call. Americans decided they'd take a chance on Donald Trump(!) rather than put up with four more years of Democrat party tyranny.

"As any trader will tell you, if you are stuck lower, you want volatility, uncertainty. No matter how it comes."



Obama's current approval rating 54%... Trump 41%. HRC one of the shitiest candidate in American history and got around 3 million more votes... sure Drew whatever you say.


Those weren't true americans. True american's never vote democrat.
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It's far from just an American thing. Between Brexit and the resurgeance of far-right/nationalist groups in other countries, it seems that there's a larger cultural force at work here. I guess my question is whether this sentiment (anti- globalism/multiculturalism/&cism) will define the next few decades, or whether it's merely a pushback against the impending dominance of the globalism/multiculturalism/&cism view.
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Drew1365 wrote:
For normal people "society" is about things like family, church, local sports teams, neighborhood schools.

It seems fundamentally un-American to leave politics off this list.

In the US, government is by the people. Politics is fundamental to government. When the people stop participating in government something else will take their place: your despised political caste.

If the average American does not include participating in the political process as part of normal society, it is no wonder we are where we are.
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rayito2702 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
For normal people "society" is about things like family, church, local sports teams, neighborhood schools.

It seems fundamentally un-American to leave politics off this list.

In the US, government is by the people. Politics is fundamental to government. When the people stop participating in government something else will take their place: your despised political caste.

If the average American does not include participating in the political process as part of normal society, it is no wonder we are where we are.


Government is this monolithic thing, not made up of people, but made of this substance called "Politicians" who maliciously and evilly use their politics to corrupt good hardworking americans. They are aided by their sinister lackeys, known as democrats, to bring down God's chosen. They might take the form of humans, but they are pure evil.
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Dispaminite wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
American's are inherently uninterested in anything that isn't shinny. Actually paying attention takes effort. IF DJT is an epic fail I'm hoping that it's a wake up call.


8 years of Obama was the wake-up call. Americans decided they'd take a chance on Donald Trump(!) rather than put up with four more years of Democrat party tyranny.

"As any trader will tell you, if you are stuck lower, you want volatility, uncertainty. No matter how it comes."



Obama's current approval rating 54%... Trump 41%. HRC one of the shitiest candidate in American history and got around 3 million more votes... sure Drew whatever you say.


Those weren't true americans. True american's never vote democrat.


I'm starting to believe this. I know it's probably hyperbole, but the Democratic ideals really have strayed from what is good. They keep touting freedom and liberty for all, but the practical application of their programs results in death, debt, and debauchery.
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Sarxis wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
American's are inherently uninterested in anything that isn't shinny. Actually paying attention takes effort. IF DJT is an epic fail I'm hoping that it's a wake up call.


8 years of Obama was the wake-up call. Americans decided they'd take a chance on Donald Trump(!) rather than put up with four more years of Democrat party tyranny.

"As any trader will tell you, if you are stuck lower, you want volatility, uncertainty. No matter how it comes."



Obama's current approval rating 54%... Trump 41%. HRC one of the shitiest candidate in American history and got around 3 million more votes... sure Drew whatever you say.


Those weren't true americans. True american's never vote democrat.


I'm starting to believe this. I know it's probably hyperbole, but the Democratic ideals really have strayed from what is good. They keep touting freedom and liberty for all, but the practical application of their programs results in death, debt, and debauchery.


Here I would say the same about Conservatives. The Republican parties decisions have made it so I have to actively vote against them.
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Drew1365 wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Pinook wrote:
This looks likely to have taken decades of systemic societal failures to bring a rich, educated, well-fed, secure nation with a proud past to this.

Anyone here found analysis along these lines?



Systemic societal failures?

How about systemic political failures?

Politics is society!


No.

Well, I mean to those for whom politics has replaced religion, yeah, I suppose. And for whom politics is a cudgel wielded against society, yeah.

But otherwise, no. Not for normal people.

For normal people "society" is about things like family, church, local sports teams, neighborhood schools.

The central planners of the political class want to stick their liver-spotted hands into all of this, and the citizen class reacts strongly and says "Go back to the abyss prepared for you!"



Politics has deeply infiltrated churches, to the length that religious voters are now a constantly talked about bloc. I'm not sure this separation you describe exists.
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Doc Mage wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Pinook wrote:
This looks likely to have taken decades of systemic societal failures to bring a rich, educated, well-fed, secure nation with a proud past to this.

Anyone here found analysis along these lines?



Systemic societal failures?

How about systemic political failures?

Politics is society!


No.

Well, I mean to those for whom politics has replaced religion, yeah, I suppose. And for whom politics is a cudgel wielded against society, yeah.

But otherwise, no. Not for normal people.

For normal people "society" is about things like family, church, local sports teams, neighborhood schools.

The central planners of the political class want to stick their liver-spotted hands into all of this, and the citizen class reacts strongly and says "Go back to the abyss prepared for you!"



Politics has deeply infiltrated churches, to the length that religious voters are now a constantly talked about bloc. I'm not sure this separation you describe exists.


Thats OK, because God called them all on the phone said "s'all right, dudes. It's ain't no thang."
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Drew1365 wrote:

But otherwise, no. Not for normal people.

For normal people "society" is about things like family, church, local sports teams, neighborhood schools.



This may be largely true for rural people, but for urbanites, communities get formed along different lines - friends, coworkers, education, neighbourhoods, hobbies and also, local sports teams. It doesn't make them less normal.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Politics has deeply infiltrated every segment of society.

That doesn't mean that people WANT it that way. That means that Washington is too damn large, too powerful, and has too much control over the lives of every individual.


So you agree that churches are now political, but you think government has forced this on them. That accurate?
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Dispaminite wrote:
Government is this monolithic thing, not made up of people, but made of this substance called "Politicians" who maliciously and evilly use their politics to corrupt good hardworking americans. They are aided by their sinister lackeys, known as democrats, to bring down God's chosen. They might take the form of humans, but they are pure evil.

The libertarian hate is swelling in you now. Ignore the English language and redefine "government" for your own purposes. Misuse it. Dodge pointed questions by calling opponents "statists". Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more the servant of the oligarchs.
 
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rayito2702 wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
Government is this monolithic thing, not made up of people, but made of this substance called "Politicians" who maliciously and evilly use their politics to corrupt good hardworking americans. They are aided by their sinister lackeys, known as democrats, to bring down God's chosen. They might take the form of humans, but they are pure evil.


The libertarian hate is swelling in you now. Ignore the English language and redefine "government" for your own purposes. Misuse it. Dodge pointed questions by calling opponents "statists". Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more the servant of the oligarchs.


I was being sarcastic.
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galad2003 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
American's are inherently uninterested in anything that isn't shinny. Actually paying attention takes effort. IF DJT is an epic fail I'm hoping that it's a wake up call.


8 years of Obama was the wake-up call. Americans decided they'd take a chance on Donald Trump(!) rather than put up with four more years of Democrat party tyranny.

"As any trader will tell you, if you are stuck lower, you want volatility, uncertainty. No matter how it comes."



Obama's current approval rating 54%... Trump 41%. HRC one of the shitiest candidates in American history got around 3 million more votes... sure Drew whatever you say.


I'm sure these approval rating numbers were done by the same people who did the polls predicting a Hillary win.

The probably walked outside their office building in downtown LA or New York asked a few people on the street and said, yep that sounds about right. Let's post that.


Both are post election (by Gallop) and I'm fully aware who, how and why Trump won. Once his numbers get better I'm sure poll accuracy will be in most conservatives rear view mirror. It will definitely be in trumps.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
rayito2702 wrote:
It seems fundamentally un-American to leave politics off this list.

In the US, government is by the people.


Our politicians seem to have forgotten that.

Less than a quarter of the citizens believe that Washington operates at the consent of the governed.

The people have forgotten that. Politicians can not do anything without the people.

As Tolstoy said, Napoleon was only able to march on Moscow because the French people empowered him to do so. If the French had said, "Screw that crap," Napoleon would just have been a little man in a fancy uniform screaming in the wind.
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Dispaminite wrote:
rayito2702 wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
Government is this monolithic thing, not made up of people, but made of this substance called "Politicians" who maliciously and evilly use their politics to corrupt good hardworking americans. They are aided by their sinister lackeys, known as democrats, to bring down God's chosen. They might take the form of humans, but they are pure evil.


The libertarian hate is swelling in you now. Ignore the English language and redefine "government" for your own purposes. Misuse it. Dodge pointed questions by calling opponents "statists". Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more the servant of the oligarchs.


I was being sarcastic.

I was misquoting Star Wars.
 
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rayito2702 wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
rayito2702 wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
Government is this monolithic thing, not made up of people, but made of this substance called "Politicians" who maliciously and evilly use their politics to corrupt good hardworking americans. They are aided by their sinister lackeys, known as democrats, to bring down God's chosen. They might take the form of humans, but they are pure evil.


The libertarian hate is swelling in you now. Ignore the English language and redefine "government" for your own purposes. Misuse it. Dodge pointed questions by calling opponents "statists". Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more the servant of the oligarchs.


I was being sarcastic.

I was misquoting Star Wars.

Star Wars is craps, the blame is still on you. cool
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aiabx wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:

But otherwise, no. Not for normal people.

For normal people "society" is about things like family, church, local sports teams, neighborhood schools.



This may be largely true for rural people, but for urbanites, communities get formed along different lines - friends, coworkers, education, neighbourhoods, hobbies and also, local sports teams. It doesn't make them less normal.

Forgive us Father. We have forgotten the enlightened urbanites have long ago torn down all their churches, mosques and temples in order to build new centers of learning and wisdom, aka Starbucks.
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How about the broader societal failings regarding the reactions to Trump's election?

https://spectator.org/theyve-gone-insane/
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