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Subject: Companions in or out of an Army in the same region rss

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Roy Subs
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Aragorn is sitting alone in Osgiliath reciting The Lay of Leithian to himself and minding his own business. A Southrons and Easterlings force attacks Pelargir, and the 1 Regular there does not die. The Shadow presses, and the 1 Regular retreats to Osgiliath. Is Arargorn automatically joined with this retreating force, or can he choose to remain separate from the Army (specifically so that he does not get killed when the Shadow attacks there on his next Action die)? If he chose to remain separate from the Army (if that's allowed), and later he had a Character and Army die in hand:

- if he moved the Regular unit with the Army die, would Aragorn be denied from moving with that Army (since he chose to remain separate)?
- if he used the Character die, again would he be denied from moving with that Army (since he chose to remain separate)?
- to join with that Army, would he require to use the Character die to rejoin the Army?

I'm thinking he'd be forced to join with the Army even if he doesn't want to (as this all gets a bit tricky above in terms of bookkeeping), but curious if there is a rule that clarifies this?
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Keith Craig
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He is part of the army.

On page 26 under Army composition--
"All friendly army units, Leaders and characters inside a single region form an Army"
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Patrick Tumpane
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kbclac wrote:
He is part of the army.

On page 26 under Army composition--
"All friendly army units, Leaders and characters inside a single region form an Army"



This is actually not correct I believe.

The FP can choose if they want to include companions in a battle. They are able to co-exist with a FP army, but you can obviously not use companion benefits (re-roll, added die) if they choose to omit them from combat.

That being said, a companion can not remain separate if an army moves into siege. I could be wrong here. can Kevin chime in?

 
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Simon Kamber
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Liverportlandia wrote:
kbclac wrote:
He is part of the army.

On page 26 under Army composition--
"All friendly army units, Leaders and characters inside a single region form an Army"



This is actually not correct I believe.

The FP can choose if they want to include companions in a battle. They are able to co-exist with a FP army, but you can obviously not use companion benefits (re-roll, added die) if they choose to omit them from combat.

That being said, a companion can not remain separate if an army moves into siege. I could be wrong here. can Kevin chime in?



You cant choose to leave companions out of a defense. If you are attacking, the companions can stay with the rear-guard.
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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When defending, Companions MUST join the defending Army, this includes if they retreat into a siege.

When attacking, you can split your Army before combat begins. This is called leaving a rearguard behind. However, in order to leave a Companion behind you MUST leave at least one Army unit behind to actually form a rearguard.

See page 28 of the rules:

"Splitting an Attacking Army

It is not mandatory for all figures composing an Army chosen to attack to participate in the battle.

When a player is about to attack, he can split the Army into two, dividing the figures contained in the region into an attacking Army and into a second Army, called the rearguard, that will not take part in the upcoming battle.
Each of the two newly-created Armies must contain at least one Army unit, while Leaders, Companions, or Minions can be distributed among the two Armies as the player sees fit.

Note: If the player is using a Character Action Die result to attack, the newly-created attacking Army must contain at least one Leader or one Character.

The Army chosen as the rearguard does not affect the battle in any way, it cannot be targeted by Combat Card effects, its figures cannot be chosen as casualties, and it cannot advance into the contested region if the battle is won.

If the attacking Army includes one or more figures belonging to Nations not “At War”, then it is mandatory to split the Army (leaving with the rearguard any figure which is not “At War”).

Note that all defending units, including Leaders and Characters, are always considered to be part of the battle."
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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Liverportlandia wrote:
kbclac wrote:
He is part of the army.

On page 26 under Army composition--
"All friendly army units, Leaders and characters inside a single region form an Army"



This is actually not correct I believe.

The FP can choose if they want to include companions in a battle. They are able to co-exist with a FP army, but you can obviously not use companion benefits (re-roll, added die) if they choose to omit them from combat.

That being said, a companion can not remain separate if an army moves into siege. I could be wrong here. can Kevin chime in?



You are incorrect. A Companion (or Minion) MUST join an Army in the same region when the Army is attacked.
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Roy Subs
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Veldrin wrote:
When defending, Companions MUST join the defending Army, this includes if they retreat into a siege.

Great, that's the bit I needed. Sure, I know the splitting and rearguard options, but was unsure on this point, thanks for the clarification.

It was actually a point in the Warriors of Middle-earth rules that made me wonder on this.

p.14 (on when Dead Men elimination) "The Free Peoples player may declare that Strider/Aragorn, and any Companions with him, leaves the Army of the Dead (for example, to join a Free Peoples Army in the same region, or to move away). The Army of the Dead is immediately disbanded and the Faction is out of the game."

It sort of sounded like, after the Dead Men are eliminated, Aragorn has to decide whether to join the Army in that region, or not. I think not though, I think it's saying that Aragorn can decide to disband the Army of the Dead at any time (no Action die required, just declare he's leaving, maybe to help protect an Army in that region, and the Dead Men just disband instantly. He could even do this after the Shadow announces an attack, and just declare that Aragorn is joining the Army just before the battle starts.

Would you say that's correct?
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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roysubs wrote:
It sort of sounded like, after the Dead Men are eliminated, Aragorn has to decide whether to join the Army in that region, or not. I think not though, I think it's saying that Aragorn can decide to disband the Army of the Dead at any time (no Action die required, just declare he's leaving, maybe to help protect an Army in that region, and the Dead Men just disband instantly. He could even do this after the Shadow announces an attack, and just declare that Aragorn is joining the Army just before the battle starts.

Would you say that's correct?


Yes, that is how I read the rules.
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Roy Subs
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Actually, there is another quirk here ... It's hard to imagine why Aragorn would do this as the Dead Men Call to Combat effect is very powerful, and would do a pre-combat hit of 3@4 rather than wipe out the Dead Men.

ok, so here is a scenario: Aragorn stands in Lamedon with 1 Dead Men figure and Gondor Army of 5/0/0 also stands there. A Shadow force in Pelargir attacks. Aragorn stays with the Dead Men and does the pre-hit of 3@4 in round 1, which eliminates the Dead Men. At the start of round 2, would Aragorn (and Companions with him) instantly be in the Army, or would he be unable to join the Army mid-battle?
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Kevin Chapman
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My suspicion is that Aragorn would join the Army mid-battle, but I will check with the designers.
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Kevin Chapman
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Confirmed.
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Roy Subs
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Cheers Kevin. Ah, I think that I didn't fully think out the permutations here ... That is a pre-combat effect, so it could be argued that if he *instantly* moves into the Army, that he *could* be available on round 1 (the Dead Men smash against the Shadow and then Aragorn jumps into the battle) and then a possible retreat happens :-s . And this is not just hypothetical, I think that this situation will almost certainly come up.

1. Pre-Combat strike eliminates Dead Men, Aragorn instantly joins the Free Army in that region.

2. Pre-Combat strike eliminates Dead Men, but Aragorn is prevented from joining the Free Army in that region until round 2, BUT, in the meantime the Shadow presses and the Free Army retreats. Aragorn is left standing alone on the field with the Free Army elsewhere.

3. Pre-Combat strike eliminates Dead Men, but Aragorn is prevented from joining the Free Army in that region until END of round 1. In the meantime the Shadow presses and the Free Army (now containing Aragorn) retreats.

All 3 seem plausible, so I'm completely unsure which is most fair / consistent of these 3 options. 1 is maybe the cleanest/simplest, but there is an argument that he should not be allowed into the Army that round, but then the retreat situation makes it more complex (if he's not allowed into the Combat, well retreat is part of that, and this could be seen as an advantage for the Free player meaning that Aragorn is not risked in battle, AND gets to escape with the retreating Army).
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Kevin Chapman
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He joins the Army instantly, but his abilities (Leadership, etc.) may not be used in the battle until the next round, as he has already been "used" in the current round for the Dead Men's combat effect. This is similar to forfeiting a Character's abilities to fulfill a Combat card's requirements.
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Roy Subs
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Thanks Kevin, I had come to the same conclusion myself while thinking about this over the past day. That's definitely the most logical interpretation. Cheers.

Consequences are:

- Aragorn would be eliminated at the end of round 1, if he used the Dead Men Call to Combat (which eliminated the Dead Men) and the Shadow managed to wipe out the Free Army (as he becomes a part of the Army instantly when the Dead Men are eliminated, so he will be eliminated with the Free Army if that Army is wiped out).

- But, if the Free Army was not eliminated this round, and the Shadow pressed, he would also be *required* to retreat with them, as he is now a part of the Army.
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Raf B
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Wow. I'd never considered any of this. Nice work teasing this all out, guys.
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Torben
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Krieghund wrote:
He joins the Army instantly, but his abilities (Leadership, etc.) may not be used in the battle until the next round, as he has already been "used" in the current round for the Dead Men's combat effect. This is similar to forfeiting a Character's abilities to fulfill a Combat card's requirements.

Same for other companions' leadership when they switch armies with Aragorn from the army of the dead to the regular army?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Yes.
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Atanasije Stojkovic
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I think the answer may probably be yes - however, can Aragorn join the battle willfully, mid-battle (e.g. before the 3rd round of combat), disbanding the Army of the Dead?

While this may be a hard scenario to think of, let's say I want so much to kill the Witch-king and use the Combat Card that eliminates a Minion with a Companion.
 
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Roy Subs
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Yes, that will work, see above points. Aragorn can choose to disband the Army of the Dead at any time, so if you wanted to use the Minion killer card on round 3, at the start of round 3, just announce to your opponent that Aragorn is disbanding the Dead Men, and then Aragorn and the Companions that are with him are now immediately part of the Army in that region and can play Combat cards that require Aragorn or one of the Companions that were with him.

With the caveat of course that if Aragorn did *not* disband the Dead Men, then he *cannot* play cards that require Aragorn or the Companions with the Dead Men (i.e. those Companions are with the Army of the Dead and so are not with the normal Army).

Also note that if you did not disband the Dead Men and at the end of round 2, and the Free Army had to retreat after a bad round of combat, the Dead Men may *not* move with the retreat (as the Dead Men are separate from any normal Army in the region with them), so the Dead Men would remain in that region while the normal Army retreats to an adjacent region.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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I don't believe that was the designers' intent. The Rulebook says:
Quote:
The Free Peoples player may declare that Strider/Aragorn, and any Companions with him, leaves the Army of the Dead (for example, to join a Free Peoples Army in the same region, or to move away).


The phrase "at any moment" isn't used here, as it is in the preceding paragraph dealing with the situation of no Dead Men in the Army. My interpretation of this is that a voluntary disbanding of the Army of the Dead can only occur at a point where Srider/Aragorn would normally move or change his status regarding a Free Peoples Army. This would include the use of a Character action to move Companions or the use of a Character or Army action to move or attack with an Army in the same region.

Normally when attacking, you can't change the composition of the Army in mid-battle. For instance, you can't move figures between the attacking Army and any rearguard that was established. The situation of no Dead Men remaining is an exceptional occurrence, so Strider/Aragorn may join the Army, but I don't think that same exception applies to voluntary disbandment.
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Roy Subs
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Veldrin wrote:
roysubs wrote:
It sort of sounded like, after the Dead Men are eliminated, Aragorn has to decide whether to join the Army in that region, or not. I think not though, I think it's saying that Aragorn can decide to disband the Army of the Dead at any time (no Action die required, just declare he's leaving, maybe to help protect an Army in that region, and the Dead Men just disband instantly. He could even do this after the Shadow announces an attack, and just declare that Aragorn is joining the Army just before the battle starts.

Would you say that's correct?


Yes, that is how I read the rules.


Please see Kristofer's reply above. He's stating the opposite.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Kristofer makes an interesting point in that an attack on the region could be an event that allows Strider/Aragorn to disband the Army of the Dead and join the Free Peoples Army, but I still contend that it could not be done mid-battle.
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Roy Subs
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It's not a huge deal, happy at whatever way is felt best, but I'm building a couple of summary sheets to clarify common situations for the Factions so will be good for a final interpretation.
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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Krieghund wrote:
Kristofer makes an interesting point in that an attack on the region could be an event that allows Strider/Aragorn to disband the Army of the Dead and join the Free Peoples Army, but I still contend that it could not be done mid-battle.


I agree with Kevin but can't support it from a rules as written point-of-view, hence my agreement to how I read the rules in the earlier question.

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Kevin Chapman
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I'll check with the designers...
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