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Subject: Does sliding bomb push a mech? rss

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David Flowers
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So through a previous clarification, we know that if a mech pushes the bomb onto an oil slick but the mech doesn't go onto the slick itself, the bomb will continue to slide off the oil slick leaving the mech behind.

Here is an example of a level 1 omnistomp pushing the bomb onto an oil slick:

Before:


After:


What happens in the case when that bomb slides into another mech? Does it push the mech it slides into (After-1) or does it stop when it hits the mech (After-2)?

Before:


After-1:


After-2:


I assume it is After-1 (pushes the mech), but I just want to be certain. The way I read the rules is that a mech or bomb will act the same. When pushed, it will continue to slide until it goes off the slick, hits an unmovable mech, or hits an obstacle (like a massive boulder or the edge of the map) and it will push any player mechs (or bombs) until it does.

Is that the way everyone else understands this situation?
 
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David desJardins
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wilsonpenn wrote:
Is that the way everyone else understands this situation?


No. Honestly, the rules are pretty clear.

A Mech must be adjacent to another Mech or the Bomb to push it.

If you slide into a Mech or the Bomb, you just stop.
 
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David Flowers
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The push occurs from the original mech, which is adjacent to the bomb. We already know that a mech that moves into oil will push a mech on sitting on the other side of an oil slick when it arrives. The question is does a bomb sliding on an oil slick have the same effect as a mech sliding on an oil slick to a mech on the other side of the slick. Or if a mech pushes another mech into an oil slick, does the sliding mech push the mech on the other side.

The way I understand the rules for oil slicks is as if those square didn't exist on the map in the case where there isn't any unmovable objects on the other side. So lets say you have three mechs in a row: --MMM--. If you the left most mech pushes, you will have ---MMM-. I see oil happening the same way. Let's say we have -MMoM- and the left most Mech (M) pushes the second mech. The second mech would slide on the oil, pushing it resulting in --MoMM. Perhaps that interpretation is wrong, but I don't find the rules to be clear in this case.

I am pretty sure the design team already confirmed that if it is two mechs, the result is this:

--MoM- and the left mech moves right you result in ---oMM. If a pushed mech also pushes a mech (as in the --MMM-- case), given the --MoM- case, where a sliding mech also results in a push, why wouldn't a sliding mech from a push also push?
 
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David Flowers
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Basically a mech can't stop on an oil slick unless there is something unmovable blocking on the other end. At least that is the way I understand the rules. If that is the case, a mech pushing a mech through oil should result in a push of a mech on the other side. -MMoM- => --MoMM.

If that is the case, I don't see why the bomb would be any different. It pushes/tows/slides like a mech. So I would assume -MBoM- => --MoBM.
 
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David Flowers
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DaviddesJ wrote:
wilsonpenn wrote:
We already know that a mech that moves into oil will push a mech on sitting on the other side of an oil slick when it arrives.


No, it doesn't.


Per the designer "Mechs will push other mechs":

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23920140#23920140

 
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David desJardins
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OK, the rulebook is clear, but if the designers and the "unofficial FAQ" say that the rules are wrong, then I have no idea what the actual rules are. At some point, I guess they need to issue a revised rulebook with the actual rules.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
wilsonpenn wrote:
Is that the way everyone else understands this situation?


No. Honestly, the rules are pretty clear.

A Mech must be adjacent to another Mech or the Bomb to push it.

If you slide into a Mech or the Bomb, you just stop.

The sliding Mech is adjacent to the thing it slides into when it slides into it. It will push it.

And thus I would agree with those that would say the sliding Bomb can also push a Mech. We know the Bomb can push Mechs when a Mech is pushing the Bomb which is pushing a Mech. We also know (in this situation that if Corki's Schmeaticcard which allows you to repair damage when being pushed or pulled by a Mech is in play, then the pushed Mech is not considered to be pushed by the first Mech.

This seems to make it clear that the Bomb will indeed push Mechs when it is somehow moving of its own accord, such as sliding on an Oil Slick.

 
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David Flowers
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DaviddesJ wrote:
OK, the rulebook is clear


Ah, language. Such a fickle beast. What you see as clear, I see as unclear, and others see as clear in the other direction. There are inconsistencies in the initial release, but the files are already updated on their website to be more consistent in terms of oil slicks. They slide until block by something unmovable.
 
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David Flowers
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The truth is we can all be "correct" in terms of the original documentation. It was inconsistent, somewhat unclear, and didn't explicitly cover this corner case. They were very terse in the wording, probably as to keep it simple. I think they were a bit too terse and it has resulted in a bit more confusion than most games I have played in terms of how the corner cases should play out.

Thankfully they are very active on the forums thus far so we have been able to clear most of this up. I am hoping for an official response (either way).
 
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David desJardins
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The unofficial FAQ says the rulebook is wrong. That comports with the answer you cited. I think they just made a mistake in the rules. It happens.
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David desJardins
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Part of the problem is that from a physics point of view their new rules are counterintuitive. It takes leverage to push against the ground to push something. If you're just sliding with no traction, it's much harder to push something that's firmly anchored. It's not just a question of momentum.

That said, of course they can make the rules whatever they want them to be. And it's not a physics simulation. They should just delete/change the incorrect rule in the rulebook.
 
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David Flowers
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Part of the problem is that from a physics point of view their new rules are counterintuitive. It takes leverage to push against the ground to push something. If you're just sliding with no traction, it's much harder to push something that's firmly anchored. It's not just a question of momentum.

That said, of course they can make the rules whatever they want them to be. And it's not a physics simulation. They should just delete/change the incorrect rule in the rulebook.


I can see it both ways. It all depends on how much friction you assume the oil has and how instantaneously the force is applied... If it is assumed friction-less and the force transfer is nearly instant, then if you push a mech into oil with enough force that it would have moved one full square plus moved another mech on the other side (--MMM-- => ---MMM-), then it will slam into the mech on the other side with enough momentum to knock that object forward still. It hasn't lost any momentum along the way.

If the oil has friction or the push is more like a push (slowly applying the force), then I agree with you, the object would probably move into the oil, but not be able to move anything on the other side. The later is much more realistic.

I am going for the thematic interpretation that the mech/bomb goes sliding across the oil and rams into the other mech resulting in it being knocked off its footing (rather than actually slid sideways). Just like if someone pushes you. They are unlikely to actually make you move sideways standing up but rather knock you off balance. You might not fall over, but you end up next to where you were trying to stay up. That's the way I envision it and try to match it up with a more realistic model of physics...
 
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David Flowers
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I guess real world example: There is some ice on the sidewalk. From the grass on one side, someone pushes someone across the ice. They slam into me. I am likely to stumble sideways from the hit and they are probably hitting the ground where I was standing. (assuming they didn't fall along the slide). It just depends on how fast they are sliding I suppose would determine if they knocked me off my footing or not.

That's how I am envisioning it at least.
 
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Jonas Vanschooren
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In this case I think after2 is correct.
Should there still be a pushing force behind the bomb the second mech would be pushed, but in this case a sliding object (the bomb) comes across a mech, and since the bomb doesn't have propulsion from itself I would think it doesn't push te mech.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The part of the rulebook that is referred to as wrong and will be fixed regards things stopping their slide once they leave the Oil Slick spaces.

David, I believe your issue is that the rules say the Mech continues until it collides with another Mech or Bomb? I guess you are right that this particular rule is also poorly worded (it only really counts for unpushable Mechs and Bombs).
 
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David Flowers
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One missing word, unpushable (unmovable), makes all the difference. As it is now I actually played it stopped on the oil until I saw the desingers post. Now this situation is less clear.
 
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David desJardins
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Clipper wrote:
The part of the rulebook that is referred to as wrong and will be fixed regards things stopping their slide once they leave the Oil Slick spaces.


No, I'm talking about this (from the Unofficial FAQ):

Q) Typically, when a mech enters a space with another mech, they push them. However, in the rules for oil slicks, it says that when moving on an oil slick, it stops if it collides with another mech.

A) The Oil Slick rules are incorrect in this case. The mech would push another mech during the course of its slide, as per the usual rules for pushing.
 
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