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Subject: Leadership orders: Must leader be alone or already attached? rss

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Flix
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Hi folks,

maybe a silly question, but I did not find a clear answer in the rules forum. (Besides, as I'm German I may miss something essential in the rules...)

1) To form a "wing" as described in the rules section for Leadership cards, can the joining Leader be lone? Or does he have to be attached to a unit? Or are both cases valid for ordering the chain?

BTW, another question just comes up my mind:

2) It is explicitly pointed out that a leader who joins an unit cannot move again with this unit on the current turn. But how if it's vice versa, i.e. when an unit with an attached leader moves, can the leader then be cut off and walk alone on the same turn?

Thanks for your patient answers!

Flix
 
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Kai Peters
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Re: Leadership orders: Must leader be alone or already attac
Flix wrote:

1) To form a "wing" as described in the rules section for Leadership cards, can the joining Leader be lone? Or does he have to be attached to a unit? Or are both cases valid for ordering the chain?


It doesn't matter whether the leader is attached or not.


Flix wrote:

2) It is explicitly pointed out that a leader who joins an unit cannot move again with this unit on the current turn. But how if it's vice versa, i.e. when an unit with an attached leader moves, can the leader then be cut off and walk alone on the same turn?


No, he can't. If you want the leader to end up somewhere else you have to detatch him before he or the unit he's attached to moves.
 
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Stargaze wrote:
Flix wrote:

1) To form a "wing" as described in the rules section for Leadership cards, can the joining Leader be lone? Or does he have to be attached to a unit? Or are both cases valid for ordering the chain?


It doesn't matter whether the leader is attached or not.


I was assuming this, too. Just wanted to make sure...


Flix wrote:

2) It is explicitly pointed out that a leader who joins an unit cannot move again with this unit on the current turn. But how if it's vice versa, i.e. when an unit with an attached leader moves, can the leader then be cut off and walk alone on the same turn?
Stargaze wrote:

No, he can't. If you want the leader to end up somewhere else you have to detatch him before he or the unit he's attached to moves.


So to sum it up, a leader cannot move twice a turn in any way (be it first alone, then with a newly attached unit or first with an unit, then detached alone)?

Is this explicitly addressed in the rule book?

Thanks for answering so quick!
 
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Kai Peters
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Re: Leadership orders: Must leader be alone or already attac
Flix wrote:
Is this explicitly addressed in the rule book?


Yes, page 7 of the 2nd edition rulebook:

C&C:A rules wrote:
A leader may only be ordered to move once per turn. A leader that is ordered does not have to move (unless attached to an ordered unit that is moved).
 
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Kevin Duke
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Quote:
1) To form a "wing" as described in the rules section for Leadership cards, can the joining Leader be lone? Or does he have to be attached to a unit? Or are both cases valid for ordering the chain?



Quote:
It doesn't matter whether the leader is attached or not.


Actually, depending on what you mean by "wing," that might not be the correct answer.

Pardon, the English version of the rules/cards does not use the word "wing," so I'm not entirely certain of which kind of cards you are speaking.

But there is a simple and clearly stated rule that will help you, whatever it is you are asking about.

Certain cards show a small helmet image. Those are the ONLY cards which can be used to give an order to a leader who is alone.

The "inspired leadership" cards, which order a 3 or 4 units which are adjacent to a leader and attached unit can NOT be used to command a lone leader-- so those cards could not be used to give commands to him or the adjacent units.

ADDED NOTE-- FOLLOWING FURTHER DISCUSSION BELOW, I HAVE REVISED THIS OPINION.
 
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Re: Leadership orders: Must leader be alone or already attac
You cannot order the lone leader himself, but you can order the adjacent units.
 
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Flix
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Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. My question referred to page 19 of the rule book "Leadership cards". In the picture example given, they talk about a "Leader's Hex" - my question was if this hex can/must be occupied by a lone leader or an unit with an attached leader or both.

Hope this clarifies my question!
 
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...anybody with a final word? Richard? Kevin?

I try to re-word my problem:

Imagine five adjacent hexes, numbered 1-5.
Hex 1: An unsupported unit
Hex 2: An unsupported unit
Hex 3: A lone leader
Hex 4: An unsupported unit
Hex 5: An unsupported unit

Can I play a Leadership card in order to make these five move and/or battle ??
(I know that leadership cards cannot be used to detach a leader from his army, but this isn't the case here anyway)

Or isn't the situation above qualified at all to play the leadership card on them?

Please help, I'm getting more & more confused...
 
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Kevin Duke
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Richard, or perhaps Tony Curtis, are the only "final word" of course.

My opinion has grown fuzzy on this point.

Up until 5 minutes ago, I thought the ONLY way you could activate and move an unattached leader (I'll say "lone leader" from here on) was with a card that had the helmet symbol.

1st edition rules specifically said you must have this helmet symbol to "detach" and did not say otherwise about moving lone leaders any other way.

And I was about to write it that way, but took another look at 2nd edition rules.

Quote:
When a Section Command card or the ‘Order Mounted Troops’
Command card is played, a leader in the same hex as a unit may
be ordered to detach from the unit and move by himself. Section
cards and the Order Mounted Troops Command cards have a
helmet symbol to remind players that one or more attached leaders
may be ordered to move separately when playing these cards.
Each attached leader detached from its unit and moved separately
costs one order. The remaining orders on the Command
card may be used to order units (including the one from which a
leader was detached), or unattached leaders. Note that a leader
may not detach from a unit when a ‘Leadership’ Command card
is played.


That is a significant change from 1st edition which was not "blue highlighted" (and should be!).

So, we clearly have a case where unattached leaders are receiving commands from a card which does not have a helmet symbol, provided that they are lone leaders already.

A. The wording of the "Leadership" cards specifically says you can "order a leader, the unit in the leader's hex, plus a number of other units..."

B. But also says, "issue an order to units under one leader's command (leader's hex and # adjacent linked hexes) or order one unit of your choice."

So does the "A" statement mean you can only use the card to order a leader who DOES have units in his hex? Or is it just giving you the units in the leader's hex as 'freebies' in addition to the adjacent links units?

And, I've always been struggling with whether "order one unit of your choice" would include an unattached leader-- there are a number of cards which say that and don't have helmets, and it seemed like little enough benefit if you couldn't use the rest of the card. I struggled.

The most recent FAQ says:

Quote:
Q. What units are ordered on the "Leadership" Command card?
A. The Leadership card orders the leader's hex, and either 3 or 4 adjacent linked hexes that are occupied by your units.


But now that I see how the 2nd edition rule (and FAQ) are worded, I'm thinking I've misunderstood all along, thinking that lone leaders only take commands from helmet symbol cards. So many parts of this game must be taken literally, and, literally, what it says is you have to have helmet symbols to DETACH but that appears to be the only requirement for helmet symbols... I'll say it again-- it appears that the only thing helmet symbols indicate is the ability to DETACH leaders from units.

It looks to me like lone leaders take commands like any other unit, and by that interpretation, I should think you could use the card to activate the units as you describe.

Yes, I'd sure like an official clarification on the matter, but, lacking an official disagreement, I don't see how anyone could deny you from playing the leadership card and activating the leader and however many of those adjacent units as the card indicates.

Wow-- what a change in perception.
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Finally... thanks for understanding me, Kevin!! (I don't feel that lost anymore) :-)

kduke wrote:
A. The wording of the "Leadership" cards specifically says you can "order a leader, the unit in the leader's hex, plus a number of other units..."

B. But also says, "issue an order to units under one leader's command (leader's hex and # adjacent linked hexes) or order one unit of your choice."

So does the "A" statement mean you can only use the card to order a leader who DOES have units in his hex? Or is it just giving you the units in the leader's hex as 'freebies' in addition to the adjacent links units?

I'm really glad you were able to reconstruct my problem - and I think it comes down to one term in the rule book:
What is meant by the "leader's hex" exactly? Literally, the hex where the leader stands? Or just the unit with attached leader in contrary to the units to the left and right...?

Flix
 
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"Leader's hex" could be a way of giving you "either" or "both."

It's actually a cleaner, simpler game working like this-- requiring helmets to detach means you can't do it freely, but allowing lone leaders to accept any command (that fits within their section) makes it easier for them to survive, if they "lose" a unit and don't reach another on on the evade.

I actually like it this way. I just hope we're correct!
 
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I agree. Hopefully we get corrected or confirmed soon!
 
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I moved the question over to CsW. I hope someone finds it here or there and gives us the official answer.

Funny, having adjusted my perspective, now I wonder how I could have thought otherwise.
 
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kduke wrote:
Funny, having adjusted my perspective, now I wonder how I could have thought otherwise.

Well, maybe simply because your rule of thumb with the helmet symbol was clean and easy?

Regards,
Flix
 
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Richard B. has posted replies in CSW that answer most of the questions.

I'm still a bit fuzzed on whether the rules suggest that leaders are units or not, but the rest of it makes sense.
 
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Could you please post a link?

EDITED: I just see that CSW requires a non-free memberhsip to read articles, so could you please quote what RB has stated?

Thanks in advance,
Flix
 
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Felix,

Sorry if I complicated things-- Since Richard's reply was directly connected to the summarization that I posted, I thought it would be more clear if people were reading directly at the source.

I've been on CSW for so long I did not know about it becoming a paid site-- but I just read the subscribe page and it appears that a person can READ whatever is there without paying for a subscription, but has very limited "posting" abilities-- just a few forums allow non subscribers to post.

So, if I've read THOSE "rules" correctly, you or anyone else should be able to access the CCA forum and follow along.

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?7@974.rqlmclAw2Br.36@.1dcfb...

Another reason I wanted folks to go there is that they allow "color" for special entries or quotes that I think is a little easier to read than the quote boxes here, especially if a person is doing lots of answers within a document, which RB is doing here.

I'll put my originals in the quote boxes and leave RB's words where they are more clear.
I think this mostly answers our question, with one caveat at the end.


Richard Borg - Jun 2, 2007 9:21 pm (#3741 Total: 3746)



Quote:
Order Leaders

Since Day 1, I have thought you could only make leaders move using command cards that have the little helmet symbol.


After this discussion, plus looking again at a section of 2nd edition rules which is very different from first edition (see section 7-- very different from first edition 7), and checking out the most recent FAQ and reading the section with this new perspective, I've now come to believe otherwise.


(RB) I believe most of section 7 of the second printing reworked was done to expanded and go into detail about the distinction between leaders and units and how leaders interact with units when attached and how to detach from a unit. The title of section 7 second printing is changed to Order Units and Leaders.

Quote:
It appears that the helmet symbol cards are the only way you can willfully DETACH a leader from a unit he is already attached to. But it looks like a lone leader can receive appropriate commands like any other unit ("appropriate" meaning "in the correct section" and things like that.) This would also mean you could order a leader if you play a card which has the "if none available, order any one unit" alternative.


(RB) Actually the rule states: When a Section Command card or the "Order Mounted Troops" Command card is played, a leader in the same hex as a unit may be ordered to detached from the unit and move by himself. Section cards and the Order Mounted Troops Command cards have a helmet symbol to remind players that one or more attached leaders may be ordered to move separately when playing these cards. The remaining orders on the Command card may be used to order units (including the one from which a leader was detached) or unattached leaders.

"or unattached leaders" indicates that unattached leaders may be ordered on section cards… but to be fair the "or unattached leaders" words were added to explain this better in the second printing, so it may have been overlooked.

Quote:
Anyone disagree with this?



(RB) I don't…

Quote:
Then there are cards like the "inspired leadership" cards. The card says that you are issuing orders to units, which would imply that a lone leader could not be ordered, but then states that the "leader's hex and ..." can be ordered, which would imply (to me) that a lone leader could be the target of the card. But that is not clear.


(RB) The Leadership Command card states: Issue an order to units under one leader's command in xxx section (leader's hex and xxx adjacent linked hexes) or order one unit of your choice.

The leader's hex referred to on the "Leadership" Command card, does not require the leader to be with a unit for the leader to be ordered.

However, looking again at section 7 second printing last line in the section states: Note that a leader may not detach from a unit when a "Leadership" Command card is played.

So a leader alone in a hex may be ordered on a Leadership card to move on his own but a leader attached to a unit may not detach.

Quote:
Then there are the cards that allow you to "order one unit of your choice". Can that "unit" be a leader?


(RB) A leader is not a unit so the leader may not be order on these cards.



Because GMT has really tried to expand the rules to make items clearer, perhaps a second read of the entire second printing rule booklet would prove valuable.

Thanks for staying and playing…

Richard Borg





Back to KD.
That clears up everything for me, except I have some concerns that the rules DO suggest-- at least in some places-- that "a leader is a unit." RB says it is not, so now we know. But I'll see if I can cite the confusing points so GMT can continue to make the Living Rules living.

By the way, if anyone from GMT is reading this, it would be helpful if the living rules got update numbers any and every time something is changed. Even if it's just V. 2.102 to V 2.103 to indicate some VERY minor change, it would still help us keep current.

thanks



 
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Thanks Kevin!

The link given does work flawlessly.
And this is the sentence I was waiting for:

The leader's hex referred to on the "Leadership" Command card, does not require the leader to be with a unit for the leader to be ordered.

So, if I got it right the only cards to order a lone leader are:

- 27 section cards
- 1 mounted troop card
- 6 leadership cards

and a leader cannot be ordered as "if-none-available-order-any-one-unit" alternative, right?
 
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Quote:
and a leader cannot be ordered as "if-none-available-order-any-one-unit" alternative, right?


That's what RB said distinctly.

As for the list of cards, it looks like you have done a lot more homework on it than I have, so I'll leave you to be the person who fields any questions about them. But since we've now determined that the "inspired Leadership" card can be used, are there really only six of them? With the left, right, center, and "any" variations, I would probably have wagered that there were more than six (and lost my wager, it appears.)


Now let's see how long it takes for someone to ask if the "helmet symbol" cards-- the only ones which can be used to DETACH a leader-- can also be used to move a Lone Leader. (Maybe I'll win this wager!)


Felix, I was able to stay in your beautiful city for two days many years ago (stayed at "Hotel am Schloss.") I'll never forget the wonderful sound of bells in the evening.

Prost!

kevin
 
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kduke wrote:
Felix, I was able to stay in your beautiful city for two days many years ago (stayed at "Hotel am Schloss.") I'll never forget the wonderful sound of bells in the evening.

Two days is definitely not enough to try out all the pubs and places in the "Altstadt" (old town)!
And, just to make you envious...while typing this I can see the ancient Heidelberg castle from my window... cool

Anyway, let me know when you ever come back to visit our small town - maybe we can meet and have a cold beer together!

Prost to you!

Flix
 
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Envious of the view or of the beer?

(Yeah, I know the answer-- BOTH!)
 
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Re: Leadership orders: Must leader be alone or already attac
I found a need to revisit this thread tonight, and I still don't think it answers the original question, namely:

Can an "Inspired leadership" card be used to active units/leader in the following way:

Imagine five adjacent hexes, numbered 1-5. (to quote from above)
Hex 1: An unsupported unit
Hex 2: An unsupported unit
Hex 3: A lone leader
Hex 4: An unsupported unit
Hex 5: An unsupported unit

Can an "Inspired Leadership + 4 hexes" be used this way.

I don't think it can, as the units in hexes 1, 2, 4 and 5 do not form a continuous group of adjacent units (as the leader in hex 3 is not a unit).

I think if you use an "Inspired Leadership" card to activate an unattached leader, then only that leader can be activated (as there is no chain of adjacent units).

I might be prepared to accept that you could activate hexes 3, 4 and 5 (as 4 and 5 are adjacent linked hexes to the leaders activated hex).

On a side note - Is "Inspired Leadership L/R/C/any Section" a section card? - I don't think so, so most of the above discussion does not apply?

Thanks for any help on this. This has been the first (and only) rules question two old wargamers have not been able to agree on while playing C&C:A since its release.
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MickM wrote:
I found a need to revisit this thread tonight, and I still don't think it answers the original question, namely:

Hi Mick,

as I feel my question above has been thouroughly answered I will try to help you out.

Quote:

Can an "Inspired leadership" card be used to active units/leader in the following way:

Imagine five adjacent hexes, numbered 1-5. (to quote from above)
Hex 1: An unsupported unit
Hex 2: An unsupported unit
Hex 3: A lone leader
Hex 4: An unsupported unit
Hex 5: An unsupported unit

Can an "Inspired Leadership + 4 hexes" be used this way.

I don't think it can, as the units in hexes 1, 2, 4 and 5 do not form a continuous group of adjacent units (as the leader in hex 3 is not a unit).

It can. The Leadership card orders the leader's hex, and either 3 or 4 adjacent linked hexes that are occupied by your units. The term "linked hexes" refers to the leader's hex, i.e. once you can order the leader (being alone or attached) all units (up to the given amount) linked either to the leader or to another unit that is linked to the leader are activated.

Hope this was clear, sorry for my English.

Best regards,
Flix
 
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Flix wrote:

And this is the sentence I was waiting for:

The leader's hex referred to on the "Leadership" Command card, does not require the leader to be with a unit for the leader to be ordered.


It looks like people feel this thread closed the loop on the topic, but I'm unconvinced and can't find it discussed elsewhere. The full text of the card says:

"Issue an order to units under one leader's command (leader's hex and 3 adjacent linked hexes)."

Richard Borg clarifies in his thread that a leader is not a "unit." So the interpretation here is a lone leader CANNOT be ordered with this card, but you CAN order surrounding units "under its command." If there was a unit with the leader then the "leader's hex" applies, but the wording on the card is specifically "units under leader's command."

This would be cleared up if the wording was "Issue an order to units and/or leaders in one leader's hex and 3 adjacent linked hexes. Note: Leaders may not detach from units with this card." This removes the ambiguity around the term "leader's command" and is fully consistent with the wording on Section Command cards, too.



 
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Its not as difficult as people seems to see it;

if a card lets you to order the leader's hex +3 linked hexes, then clearly it orders the leader as well (the contents of the hex, whether leader alone or accompanied).
if a card orders units, then only attached leaders are ordered as well as they must follow their unit wherever they go. lone leaders are not ordered as they are not units.
cards who also portray the helmet symbol clearly state that they can order units and/or leaders. so it states both and can thus be used even on a lone leader.

so yes, leaders are not units and can thus not be ordered if the card only orders units, but they will tag along if attached to a unit that is ordered.
 
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