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Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1» Forums » Rules

Subject: Movement with leader and defensive fire questions rss

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Frank Wille
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These questions made me think (and studying rules in vain) today:

1a. A unit which begins and ends its movement together with a leader receives 2 MF bonus. Is it possible for a leader to spend 1 MF alone first, then continue movement stacked with other units for another 5 MF? I guess not...?

1b. A similar question would be: when you have two squads stacked together at the beginning of the MPh and one of them spends 1 MF for Smoke. Can they move together in a stack after that? For example for 3 MF, then split and the second squad continues for 1 MF?

2. Defensive First Fire. I have a squad with an MG and a leader. It decides to fire just the MG, without the leader, at a moving enemy#1 in location#1. The MG ratains ROF. Can the leader now direct the fire of the MG and the squad's inherent FP at a moving enemy#2 in location#2?

3. A 4-4-7 squad has a 3-8 LMG and a First Fire marker. May this squad fire at an enemy unit at a range of 6 hexes with SFF? The rules state it has to be normal range. Normal range of what? Does it mean just the LMG may fire? Can it fire at all?

4a. SFF is only allowed at the closest enemy units in LOS. Does this include all kinds of units? Also broken ones and those in Melee?

4b. What happens when the closest enemy unit in LOS has moved out of sight during the MPh, but is still the closest one? Is it ignored or is it remembered (like in the RtPh)?
 
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Peter Kossits
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phxhf wrote:

1a. A unit which begins and ends its movement together with a leader receives 2 MF bonus. Is it possible for a leader to spend 1 MF alone first, then continue movement stacked with other units for another 5 MF? I guess not...?


No. To get the bonus they have to start and end move together.

phxhf wrote:

1b. A similar question would be: when you have two squads stacked together at the beginning of the MPh and one of them spends 1 MF for Smoke. Can they move together in a stack after that? For example for 3 MF, then split and the second squad continues for 1 MF?


That sounds OK. But why would you want to do this? You're wasting 1MF on the 2nd squad. Only time this really makes sense to do is with a leader stack.

phxhf wrote:

2. Defensive First Fire. I have a squad with an MG and a leader. It decides to fire just the MG, without the leader, at a moving enemy#1 in location#1. The MG ratains ROF. Can the leader now direct the fire of the MG and the squad's inherent FP at a moving enemy#2 in location#2?


Afraid not. Once leader leads the MG alone, he can't give leadership to any other unit/SW.

phxhf wrote:

3. A 4-4-7 squad has a 3-8 LMG and a First Fire marker. May this squad fire at an enemy unit at a range of 6 hexes with SFF? The rules state it has to be normal range. Normal range of what? Does it mean just the LMG may fire? Can it fire at all?


The LMG may SFF but not the squad. But only if there are no other enemy units closer than 6 hexes. After the shot the squad and LMG would both get Final Fire marker.

phxhf wrote:

4a. SFF is only allowed at the closest enemy units in LOS. Does this include all kinds of units? Also broken ones and those in Melee?


Yes.

phxhf wrote:

4b. What happens when the closest enemy unit in LOS has moved out of sight during the MPh, but is still the closest one? Is it ignored or is it remembered (like in the RtPh)?


It's ignored for SFF purposes if the firing unit cannot see it.

Lots of questions, but good ones.
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Frank Wille
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peterk1 wrote:

phxhf wrote:

1b. A similar question would be: when you have two squads stacked together at the beginning of the MPh and one of them spends 1 MF for Smoke. Can they move together in a stack after that? For example for 3 MF, then split and the second squad continues for 1 MF?


That sounds OK. But why would you want to do this? You're wasting 1MF on the 2nd squad.

It was just an example. Maybe you want to move together through a narrow passage, to avoid the Residual Fire for the second unit?

When 1b is ok, then I don't understand the problem with 1a. Imagine the Leader is in the same hex as the MMC. The Leader spends 1 MF to recover a SW. Then the situation should be the same and both can move together? How far?


peterk1 wrote:

phxhf wrote:

2. Defensive First Fire. I have a squad with an MG and a leader. It decides to fire just the MG, without the leader, at a moving enemy#1 in location#1. The MG ratains ROF. Can the leader now direct the fire of the MG and the squad's inherent FP at a moving enemy#2 in location#2?


Afraid not. Once leader leads the MG alone, he can't give leadership to any other unit/SW.

But it doesn't lead the MG alone. The MG first fires without the leader! The leader had no action. Can't it then lead the ROF-MG and the squad together?

Thanks.
 
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Bruce Probst
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I can give you the answers applicable to full ASL. ASLSK rules may be slightly different.

phxhf wrote:
1a. A unit which begins and ends its movement together with a leader receives 2 MF bonus. Is it possible for a leader to spend 1 MF alone first, then continue movement stacked with other units for another 5 MF? I guess not...?


You guess correctly. The unit must start and spend all of its MPh stacked with the leader. (A4.12)

Quote:
1b. A similar question would be: when you have two squads stacked together at the beginning of the MPh and one of them spends 1 MF for Smoke. Can they move together in a stack after that? For example for 3 MF, then split and the second squad continues for 1 MF?


Yes, but as noted above, there really isn't any good reason to do that if there is no leader involved. Just move them separately. [Edit: it occurs to me that there might be circumstances where you might want/need to move units as a stack even without a leader, e.g., moving with a Partisan unit in order to gain a movement bonus in woods (A25.241). In ASLSK that would only be a factor if there is a specific SSR. In general -- don't move as a stack if there is no specific need to do so.]

Quote:
2. Defensive First Fire. I have a squad with an MG and a leader. It decides to fire just the MG, without the leader, at a moving enemy#1 in location#1. The MG ratains ROF. Can the leader now direct the fire of the MG and the squad's inherent FP at a moving enemy#2 in location#2?


No. That would be directing a new FG which is not permitted (A7.53). The simplest way to put it is, if you want to involve a leader in an attack, the leader has to have been involved from the very first attack that any particular unit/SW combination makes. If the leader directs the squad but the MG is excluded, then he can not direct that MG at any point later in the same turn, whether the squad is involved or not. You can have units drop out from a FG and still use the leader, but you can't later add something and still use the leader. And yes, that means under certain rare circumstances, the leader might end up doing absolutely nothing for the entire fire phase. The moral of the story is, choose the order of your attacks carefully, and use the leader where you think he will do the most good.

Quote:
3. A 4-4-7 squad has a 3-8 LMG and a First Fire marker. May this squad fire at an enemy unit at a range of 6 hexes with SFF? The rules state it has to be normal range. Normal range of what? Does it mean just the LMG may fire? Can it fire at all?


SFF must be within normal range of whatever it is that is making the attack (A8.3). So in your example, only the LMG would be able to use SFF against that target. (Remember that would mark both the LMG and the squad with Final Fire!)

Quote:
4a. SFF is only allowed at the closest enemy units in LOS. Does this include all kinds of units? Also broken ones and those in Melee?


Per A8.3, "closest armed, Known enemy unit". I think in ASLSK all units are armed and Known (if there's a LOS) by default? So yes, any enemy unit, even if broken or in Melee.

Quote:
4b. What happens when the closest enemy unit in LOS has moved out of sight during the MPh, but is still the closest one? Is it ignored or is it remembered (like in the RtPh)?


It's not "remembered". It has to be in LOS at the time that you're making the attack to be a consideration. (In full ASL terms, if it's not currently in LOS, it's not Known.)

Hope that helps.
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Frank Wille
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BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
1b. A similar question would be: when you have two squads stacked together at the beginning of the MPh and one of them spends 1 MF for Smoke. Can they move together in a stack after that? For example for 3 MF, then split and the second squad continues for 1 MF?


Yes,

But... see my reply to Peter above. Then were is the difference, when I replace that squad with a leader?

Is it probably like: the leader can move together with the squad, after spending 1 MF, but only for 4 MF, because the bonus is completely gone? This could make sense...

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
2. Defensive First Fire. I have a squad with an MG and a leader. It decides to fire just the MG, without the leader, at a moving enemy#1 in location#1. The MG ratains ROF. Can the leader now direct the fire of the MG and the squad's inherent FP at a moving enemy#2 in location#2?


No. That would be directing a new FG which is not permitted (A7.53).

A7.53 says: A single leader cannot direct more than one weapon/unit per phase unless they are part of the same FG.
My leader is only directing a single SW and squad this phase. Only the MG already fired before, without the leader, and retained ROF.

Quote:
The simplest way to put it is, if you want to involve a leader in an attack, the leader has to have been involved from the very first attack that any particular unit/SW combination makes.

Ok. Then my DFF action under 2. would be wrong. But I cannot read that in the rules.

Quote:
If the leader directs the squad but the MG is excluded, then he can not direct that MG at any point later in the same turn, whether the squad is involved or not.

Agreed. But the leader did nothing while the MG was ROF-firing. Directing the MG and squad together was his first action.

BruceP wrote:
Hope that helps.

It does. The rest is understood. Thanks!
 
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Bruce Probst
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phxhf wrote:
But... see my reply to Peter above. Then were is the difference, when I replace that squad with a leader?


I'm not sure I understand your question. The difference is, if you move while stacked with a leader, you are eligible for the 2 MF bonus.

Quote:
Is it probably like: the leader can move together with the squad, after spending 1 MF, but only for 4 MF, because the bonus is completely gone? This could make sense...


No ...? Does it help if I say, while you move units as a stack, everyone in the stack expends the same MF, even if they're not doing anything? So the squad expends MF to try to place a smoke grenade, the leader expends the same MF at the same time, even though technically he isn't involved in the smoke grenade attempt.

Quote:
A7.53 says: A single leader cannot direct more than one weapon/unit per phase unless they are part of the same FG.
My leader is only directing a single SW and squad this phase. Only the MG already fired before, without the leader, and retained ROF.


That's two different FG. The first FG was the MG (alone). The second FG is the squad+MG. Once the MG fires without leader assistance, any future attacks the MG makes in that player turn (whether alone or with the squad) must also be without leader assistance. (The reverse is true, if it's the squad that fires without leader assistance.)

Quote:
Agreed. But the leader did nothing while the MG was ROF-firing. Directing the MG and squad together was his first action.


That's irrelevant. It wasn't the MG's first action, which is the deciding factor.
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Frank Wille
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BruceP wrote:
Does it help if I say, while you move units as a stack, everyone in the stack expends the same MF, even if they're not doing anything? So the squad expends MF to try to place a smoke grenade, the leader expends the same MF at the same time, even though technically he isn't involved in the smoke grenade attempt.

That makes it clear, although I didn't expect that. Fortunately I rarely played it wrong, because usually you won't move in a stack when making Smoke with a unit.

BruceP wrote:
Once the MG fires without leader assistance, any future attacks the MG makes in that player turn (whether alone or with the squad) must also be without leader assistance.

Ok. Understood. The rules only made that clear for DFF, SFF and FF, but not for ROF.
 
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Peter Kossits
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phxhf wrote:
because usually you won't move in a stack when making Smoke with a unit.


Don't forget about the possibility though. In some scenarios like Gavin Take it's quite common. A big stack has to move far so they move with the leader, but there's one hex in the move that is very dangerous, so they pause to try for smoke once (or twice).

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