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Subject: After three games rss

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Karl Kindt
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It's just not fun.

I like almost all kinds of board games. I prefer area control and things with spatial relationship aspects, but I an enjoy all kinds of games. My current favorites are diverse: TIGRES AND EUPHRATES, CAMEL UP, STAR TREK ASCENDANCY, SCYTHE, and IMHOTEP.

I get some of the secrets that are coming. Even if they are as awesome as I think they might be, the actual gameplay is not fun. Picture a long, deep game that you love. Now picture playing it in slow motion. Extreme slow motion. Picture that long game you like that takes two hours. Now picture stretching that out in slow motion, the same type of actions, to taking 10x longer. It's like playing SCYTHE, but instead of 2 hours, the game takes 20 hours to finish. And you still don't really know who won the game.

The biggest problems:

-Huge down time between turns.
-The writing in the storybook is bland. Boring. Dull. Generic. Vague.
-You play for hours not knowing what you should be doing.
-Even once you know what you probably should be doing, it's not fun.
-Once you play for about 12 hours and realize you don't like the game, you have stickered it up and destroyed it to the point you can't sell it.
-When you play one game, you feel like you have played about one-twelfth of a game.
-Naming things is fun, but it gets dull after awhile.

The only cool things:

-Naming things.
-Putting stickers on things.
-Realizing your brother bought it so you didn't waste any money on it.
-The idea.

Some day someone will hire really good writers and do a great legacy game that you can replay over and over. Oh wait. They did. It's called ARABIAN NIGHTS.

Don't waste your time. Even if you like deep, mysterious games, this one has no fun in it. It's a waste of time and money. Go replay PANDEMIC LEGACY and write your own story for the medic. It will be time better spent.
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Greg
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It's not for everyone.
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j n
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Of note, I might be willing to buy a lightly used copy of this game at some point. I'm enjoying it, and might want to play a secons time, and I don't mind skipping some of the early game, and would be happy to pay less than full price. So there's that at least.
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Jackson Rodriguez
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I don't think Arabian Nights qualifies as a legacy game.
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j n
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jayarsea wrote:
I don't think Arabian Nights qualifies as a legacy game.


Yeah, that too. Also, I tried playing it over and over again and it got stale pretty quick for me. But I could resell it still, so it's got that going for it.
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Thomas Robb
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Our group plays Sea Fall about once per month. We have played Prologue and 2 games. So far, everyone is enjoying the game and the mechanics of it. Naming things sometimes gets forgotten as everyone is so involved in deciding what strategies to use.

We may change our minds later, but right now it is very popular.

We have little to no downtime unless someone has a question about the rules. Players are ready for their turns and want to do their plan. Players watch other people's actions and raids and explores to keep track of who is going for the milestones. So far, the milestones have been earned by players who really go after them.

The writing in the Captain's Booke is not extremely interesting, but the players are VERY interested to see what their choices are going to lead to. I read the entries quickly and get to what happens to the player, which is what they want to know. The flavor text is ok, but not writing that "grabs" your attention as suspenseful.

I don't know if we know what we are doing, but we are striving to get Glory points. We understand it is a long haul, not a sprint, and even gaining some Glory points is good.

I alone, purchased the game. If we get 3-4 more plays out of it, I will have more than enjoyed the experience and feel I have my money's worth.


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Steve Hope
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I'm 13 games in, or something like that. I think the basic game system is kinda dull, but it's fun to play a game where you're learning/discovering things as you go. It's a unique experience and I like that.

My biggest issues with the game:

1. I don't think the "enmity" mechanic is well-balanced. It's so punitive that it keeps players from fighting very much. Which maybe is the intention, but if so I feel like there's a lot of wasted rules space covering some very rare stuff (at least in my group).

2. Too many advisors. We now probably have a 50+ advisor deck, which is pretty silly for a game that only runs a few years and where a lot of the advisors are now early-game dreck who just gum up the deck. There should be more advisor-culling, like the new astrolabe holder removes one of the advisors from the game permanently when you sweep the board in winter.

3. Games are too short. There's usually a cascade of milestone-achieving in the second year and the game is over. Each game hardly has a story arc at all, just a race to fulfill the best milestone and then top off glory totals.

4. There's some pretty significant lopsidedness in results. I don't think the risk/reward is balanced for several actions, most notably:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Finding a Tomb of the Ancients vs. exploring an open one


5. Maybe my biggest concern for the long run of legacy games is that there's no easy way to get timely rules feedback. You open up a box, and immediately you have a bunch of Qs. Without a well-managed FAQ which is broken up to be spoiler-free, you are probably going to play something wrong. And then it's done. We've already done it a few times.
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Adam Ruzzo
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I'm not sure why people say there's so much downtime. Unless I'm performing a raid/explore action (of which I usually perform maybe 1 out of 3 turns), my turns are over in about 20 seconds.

Why are people taking more than 20 seconds for non-raid/explore actions? Move a ship and collect 3 gold, done. Move a ship and buy goods, done. Move a ship and grab the upgrade, pay the bank, done.

This should all be decided before your turn starts. The only confounding factory is if someone grabs an advisor you were planning to take, or an advisor shows up which could change your plans. These are the moments where it's nice to let somebody do their exploring and reading from the captains book so that I can think about my alternative should my main plan be disrupted.
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j n
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Our downtime situation was worse when we had people reading their own Booke entries (they would read from the book, think briefly about their choice, possibly have to move the book out of their way to review something on their player board, then recover their place in the Booke, etc).

Now we have the player to our right read our Booke entries for us and we just have to make the decisions. It's helped a lot.

I've noticed lots of people complaining about balance issues, but what's interesting to me is the variety of complaints. Some people have had the raiding player in the lead all game, others times I've seen the raid-focused player complaining that they can't do anything worthwhile while the builders get all the glory. I've only recently read someone who thought that exploration was too weak (at least in the early games). I felt like exploration has been powerful throughout, though maybe it's tapering off a bit now.

Based on what I've seen so far, I basically believe all of these reports. There's many different possible ways for things to be revealed, explored, unlocked, and upgraded, and depending on the choices and random events you will end up with a different experience than anyone else.
 
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Ken Dilloo
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It feels like an overly complex Euro, where you don't know all the rules. I think it suffers from expectation, after Pandemic Legacy, but yeah, feels like a slog.

At this point, I can't decide if I want to just truck through it, with my group, or try to pick away at it; or just give up. Picking away at it, with other games mixed in, could easily lead to a lot of rule mistakes.
 
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j n
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bigloo33 wrote:
It feels like an overly complex Euro, where you don't know all the rules. I think it suffers from expectation, after Pandemic Legacy, but yeah, feels like a slog.

At this point, I can't decide if I want to just truck through it, with my group, or try to pick away at it; or just give up. Picking away at it, with other games mixed in, could easily lead to a lot of rule mistakes.


I hope whatever you guys decide to do ends up being more fun than expected.

If you do go the "picking away at it" route, you could handle rules issues a couple of ways. The best might be to just not worry about it too much. I think the game survives most mistakes that don't involve stickers or card destruction.

But if there's someone in your group that is enjoying it more, it might be worth it to make them the rules guru, and have them settle questions as they arise.
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Ken Dilloo
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Thanks. Haha, people might temper joy to avoid being the rules jockey!

We just opened box 3. Does it get more interesting?
 
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j n
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bigloo33 wrote:
We just opened box 3. Does it get more interesting?


I haven't gotten to box 4 or later yet.

How far through the box 3 content are you? I've been enjoying that pretty well so far, even though it is pretty high-variance.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
We actually opened box 3 before box 2, which we've only played with once, and I feel like it muddied the waters somewhat. We had a few turns with 5 buy/sell advisors out that nobody wanted because we were all going for other things. With just boxes 1 and 3 there were still enough of those guys about that someone *could* typically get one if they wanted, but there were also lots of other abilities.


But a lot of people seem to think it doesn't get really interesting until later than that.
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Greg Filpus
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bigloo33 wrote:
Thanks. Haha, people might temper joy to avoid being the rules jockey! :D

We just opened box 3. Does it get more interesting?


Boxes 4 and 5 have some interesting things, although they're not going to hugely change your mind if you're not having a ton of fun with the game as now.

To be vague, but still spoiler block so people don't even get the vague statements if they don't want, box 4 has

Spoiler (click to reveal)
a monkey wrench that changes the balance of some of the major paths to victory until it's dealt with


and box 5 has

Spoiler (click to reveal)
a neat physical gimmick that adds some gameplay elements unlike anything in the campaign so far.
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Ken Dilloo
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Thanks for the feedback, and sorry if I hijacked the thread.

I don't think there is any way I don't go through until the end, but just not sure how enthusiasm, group wide, will hold. I like the game fine, just have a lot of games to play, and this seems a bit more like a chore than Pandemic Legacy, where I (quite to my surprise) couldn't wait to play each game.
 
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12 games in. Everybody loves it. On the verge of ending the campaign.

Only thing I hate in the game so far is the Unlock Boxes, for what they have in them, could have physically EASILY been cut in half and have given us DOUBLE the Unlock Boxes. We were through 5 boxes by Game 6 and been trying to figure out all the shit vague endgame mechanics for last 6 games.
 
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Mr. Pretty
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stephenhope wrote:
I'm 13 games in, or something like that. I think the basic game system is kinda dull, but it's fun to play a game where you're learning/discovering things as you go. It's a unique experience and I like that.

My biggest issues with the game:

1. I don't think the "enmity" mechanic is well-balanced. It's so punitive that it keeps players from fighting very much. Which maybe is the intention, but if so I feel like there's a lot of wasted rules space covering some very rare stuff (at least in my group).

2. Too many advisors. We now probably have a 50+ advisor deck, which is pretty silly for a game that only runs a few years and where a lot of the advisors are now early-game dreck who just gum up the deck. There should be more advisor-culling, like the new astrolabe holder removes one of the advisors from the game permanently when you sweep the board in winter.

3. Games are too short. There's usually a cascade of milestone-achieving in the second year and the game is over. Each game hardly has a story arc at all, just a race to fulfill the best milestone and then top off glory totals.

4. There's some pretty significant lopsidedness in results. I don't think the risk/reward is balanced for several actions, most notably:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Finding a Tomb of the Ancients vs. exploring an open one


5. Maybe my biggest concern for the long run of legacy games is that there's no easy way to get timely rules feedback. You open up a box, and immediately you have a bunch of Qs. Without a well-managed FAQ which is broken up to be spoiler-free, you are probably going to play something wrong. And then it's done. We've already done it a few times.



I agree with this almost exactly. Although I haven't had that many rule problems. But we just opened box 4 and 5.

Sadly we may never play it again as two people Haye it. I think it's poorly designed. And the other guy is luke warm on it at best. After 7 actual games.
 
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George
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I can only hope my group and I will like it. We are still finishing up Pandemic Legacy. Expectations will be low at least which is better than too high.
 
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Jeff M
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MrPretty wrote:


...Sadly we may never play it again as two people Haye it. ....


edit; "two people "hate" it?
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Darren Nakamura
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Bridger wrote:
I'm not sure why people say there's so much downtime. Unless I'm performing a raid/explore action (of which I usually perform maybe 1 out of 3 turns), my turns are over in about 20 seconds.


I have one player who suffers from pretty severe analysis paralysis. This game has lots of options, and having to go through every one takes time.

As for me, I've stalled the game a few times too. I try to plan 2-3 rounds in advance, but I've had enemy players (well actually, just one enemy player) do some devastating stuff that forced me to completely reconsider my plan of action for the whole game. Right before my turn.

Our games usually go 12 or so rounds. The last one took us close to four hours. That's an average of 20 minutes per round, which sounds insane to me now that I'm doing the math, but that's what happened.
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j n
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We've had games come close to 3.5-4 hours I think, with 5 players. At 7-9 turns per player, that comes out to about five minutes per turn? Which is higher than it should be, but some of the Booke entries can take a while to resolve especially with flipping back and forth. Of course, we might be counting setup time in that as well.

We cut about an hour off that (2.5 hrs) on the day I had setup done before everyone showed up and we started having the player to the right read Booke entries for the active player. Everyone was happier with that.
 
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Becq Starforged
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Lowden025 wrote:
MrPretty wrote:


...Sadly we may never play it again as two people Haye it. ....


edit; "two people "hate" it?

No, in this case it's far worse than mere "hate". They loathed the game so much that they threw the game components into a mulcher and shredded them, then used the resulting "hay" as fodder on their farm.

I, frankly, think that's a huge over-reaction (I enjoy the game), but opinions vary...

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