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Subject: Welsh Homerun rss

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Konwacht
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Oh, what a game. Our last three sessions (including the new one) always had a winner who managed to make more than 300 points. And everytime it was another color. Today, after blue and red, I tried green - and I love these nations. Well, in generel green is something like the "oh no, don´t let me play those..."... but if you are aware of the red "clash" (irish from west and saxons from east) and counter this with a bit luck then the welsh can score, score and score... and this happened today. My welsh scored all welsh regions every, really every scoring round. Every time 20 points plus those from additional territories outside. With the welsh that strong I could smash the angles between two green factions because the saxons had bad luck against my Jutes who resisted in Wessex and Kent and sometimes expanded into Sussex in between. The saxons were in rivalry with the Jutes and Welsh and so the Angles had easy time to expand. But when the Danes came into play the Angles had no chance anymore. At some point that board got green. Totally green. Jutes, Welsh and Danes made pressure from all directions and even the alliance of all other players could not stop that orcish-like wave... Danes scored ALL kingships of the game. The endgame was between William and Svein, and Svein first attacked William (3 cavalry, two infantry at march - where he had killed Harald) with ten infantry (so both had this ONE huge overstack in march). William got defeated but could retreat to Hwicce. There, when it was the norman turn, he collected his remaining banners and marched into march again. This time three cavalry and two infantry again vs. seven infantry of Svein. Svein lost two infantry more buit smashed William with one strike... beside this only the Scots made a remarkable run and had a well operating empire in well, Scotland.

Winner: green

Welsh 154 (!!!)
Caledonians 64
Jutes 30
Danes 121

= 369

Romans 96
Romano-British 2
Scots 60
Dublinors 5
Norwegians 26

= 189

Belgae 14
Picts 14
Angles 90
Normans 42

= 160

Brigantes 56
Irish 12
Saxons 60
Norsemen 18

= 146
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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The Roman score is quite low, which implies (with your commentary) that the Welsh were not forced to submit. Who crushed the Picts, the Romans? 14 is a terrible score for them. Perhaps they refused to submit? Was it, then, Yellow and Green agreeing to work together, hence Welsh not submitted, and Scots and Cals crushed Picts?

That is a vast green score.

Lew
 
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Konwacht
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Aye, the Romans did not try to force Welsh & Brigs into submission, but this time Picts & Brigs. It worked well at first because the Belgae vanished in round II and the Picts did not want to submit, so they got smashed between Cals and Romans. It´s not that Green and Yellow agreed in cooperation but in these first rounds it was simply a logical conclusion to cooperate in that way that Cals and Romans could score when crippling those resisting Picts. When the Romans disappeared later, the Cals and Scots could advance easily. The Romans also tried to force the Brigs into submission, but they could evade and stayed there with only two territories. So the Romans scored very well in the north but the Welsh had enough time to resist the Irish invasions and had enough power to really send raiders into roman backlands starting with round IV (which was a surprise for the roman player since the Welsh had never tried to attack their forts the three round before - but well, it was toooo much interesting when Rome had it´s problems with Saxons, Angles and Jutes...).

 
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Chris Trimmer
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More and more I'm starting to think that the Romans and Welsh need to negotiate the Welsh submission ASAP, usually favorable for both parties. OR the Brits must smash enough of the Welsh lands during their first turn.

It's usally not a big deal if the Welsh smash some forts as long as the Brits finally submit them so the Romans can still score those areas.
 
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Yup, that´s definitly what I´m thinking too. It´s a very viable and appealing stratgy. Perhaps next time I will play yellow and try to develop it "from the other side"
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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A negotiated settlement is the norm at World Boardgaming Championships (and they only started playing the new version last year). If the Romans take Devon immediately then the Welsh know their number is up. They'll often agree to pull back to five areas at that point and the Romans can use a relatively small force to force submission in the second round while still wiping out the Belgae.
 
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Jon G
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*scratches head*

I posted a thread about an extended version of this approach (Welsh surrender with near-zero losses; Romans smear Belgae, Brigs & Picts; Cals & Scots share Scotland; Welsh occupy burned forts; Romans consider letting Jutes land) and the general consensus was that Red and Blue will respond by having the Angles and Saxons punish Yellow and Green instead of fighting each other.

In our games, red and blue have struggled to catch up after this treatment. Further thoughts?
 
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George Van Voorn
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I used to agree with this point of view, but unfortunately it is just too Yellow-minded.

In several games I've seen that a stiff Welsh resistance combined with an all-out Belgae and Brig attack can take the Romans down, provided the dies don't roll too bad, and that the three players can coordinate their actions well. One game this led to a Roman score of only 97, and the Welsh were NOT submitted and were actually in pretty good shape to counter the Irish. The Belgae die anyway, so as long as the Blue player understands this, a heroic death may even gain more for Blue (and the Green-Red-Blue alliance) than sit and get slaughtered...

The Cals could cooperate with the Picts rather than fight them, in order to oust the Scots (and Norse, perhaps). On more than one occasion the Cals held their own until the end of the game.

The same goes for the Jutes. A Jute-Angle or Jute-Saxon alliance isn't necessarily a bad thing. The Irish score points not only for Welsh areas, but also for RB areas like Avalon. A demarcation line between the Saxons and Welsh can work very good. And instead of taking on the Welsh, the Irish & Norse units can be used as cannon fodder against an agressive Blue player.

And then there is the players. Some players just cannot be trusted to hold their end of the bargain...

So in my opinion a Yellow-Green alliance is not automatically the best option, and a Welsh submission to/cooperation with the Romans not a given.
 
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You are right - it´s not the only option, and blue-green-alliances I have seen often too. Red-Green may work, but those I have seen rarely - much because of their natural rivalry about the same territories (they CAN cooperate, but for their scorings it is not the best option). But ALL alliances have one natural problem: The last only until one side will see it´s own advantage in breaking it. I have never seen an clearly declared alliance between two colors which then lasted until the end of the game. Alliances are something for the moment - when both partys benefit from it within one specified period. But there WILL be a moment in the game when one of both partners will grow to much and then there will be new alliances and the so-called friends will find themselves in a struggle for dominance...
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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oetan wrote:

So in my opinion a Yellow-Green alliance is not automatically the best option, and a Welsh submission to/cooperation with the Romans not a given.


Unfortunately, virtually every time I see the Welsh fight rather than submit, they end up in a very bad way later when the red appear in force, often being wiped out by red. Perhaps if the green player can trust the red, they can collude to fight the Romans tooth and nail.

As it is, without such tooth and nail resistance, the Romans easily score the maximum Turn 3 points (68 territory plus 12 for Belgae submission and Boud).
 
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Jon G
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Lew, is this something you think needs fixing in Brit 3? Should the Welsh get more incentive and opportunity to resist? More points for not submitting? Maybe let the Welsh arrange their nine armies as they see fit before the Roman invasion?

Historically, the Welsh kept invaders out of their highlands clear through to Longshanks, and gave the Romans a whole lot of trouble. Instead, the game seems to favor them basically becoming Roman allies.
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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dr.mrow wrote:
Lew, is this something you think needs fixing in Brit 3? Should the Welsh get more incentive and opportunity to resist? More points for not submitting? Maybe let the Welsh arrange their nine armies as they see fit before the Roman invasion?

Historically, the Welsh kept invaders out of their highlands clear through to Longshanks, and gave the Romans a whole lot of trouble. Instead, the game seems to favor them basically becoming Roman allies.


Currently in B3 the Welsh play after the first half of the Roman Major Invasion, then revert to playing after the Romans on R2. And they have Caratacus, who will only fight Romans. So the incentive is there for Welsh to attack Romans, yet they're likely to be forced to submit by the Romans in R2. I don't recall whether the Welsh have extra point incentives on R1 for killing Romans.

The Welsh get Cadwallon in R8, which I probably should have done in B2--it was discussed.

In B1 the Welsh rarely submitted; in B2 they almost always submit. The latter is closer to history.

Lew
 
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George Van Voorn
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Quote:
oetan wrote:

Quote:
So in my opinion a Yellow-Green alliance is not automatically the best option, and a Welsh submission to/cooperation with the Romans not a given.


Unfortunately, virtually every time I see the Welsh fight rather than submit, they end up in a very bad way later when the red appear in force, often being wiped out by red. Perhaps if the green player can trust the red, they can collude to fight the Romans tooth and nail.

As it is, without such tooth and nail resistance, the Romans easily score the maximum Turn 3 points (68 territory plus 12 for Belgae submission and Boud).


Well, that is indeed what I'm talking about. If the Welsh resist without any help from the Belgae and the Brigs, it will fail. But suppose the Roman invasion in turn 1 doesn't go exactly like planned... Green can propose a Red-Green-Blue alliance and focusses on burning forts. The Brigs go for the killing of legions (6 VP instead of 2). It has been done in more than one game with good results at times.

Yes, the Welsh must trust Red, but it works vice versa also. Maybe the Welsh resist, only to bail out a round later while many Brigs died...

Quote:
Lew, is this something you think needs fixing in Brit 3? Should the Welsh get more incentive and opportunity to resist? More points for not submitting? Maybe let the Welsh arrange their nine armies as they see fit before the Roman invasion?

Historically, the Welsh kept invaders out of their highlands clear through to Longshanks, and gave the Romans a whole lot of trouble. Instead, the game seems to favor them basically becoming Roman allies.


I don't believe so. Yes, the addition of Caratacus would be consistent with the presence of Boudicca (what about Venutius, by the way?), but the Welsh were submitted, end of story. Of course, this is a what-if game that explores different possibilities on what could have happened, but there is no way of knowing what could have gone differently.

I feel changing it would only unbalance the game; Yellow would have an even harder time of winning.
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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The color combinations are different in B3, so it won't hurt to have the Romans have a harder time. In B2 they may have it a bit too easy compared with history. (Oh, in B3 some extra Picts show up at one time later in the Roman age, with only one reason to live: killing Romans. I'm trying to make the Roman age more interesting and maybe less one-sided than it is in B2.)
 
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Very interesting news for B3

I´m sure, I´ll love it like all the editions I got before

 
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Marc Mistiaen
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lewpuls wrote:
The color combinations are different in B3


Could you tell us a bit more about that? I'm curious because I too would be worried to have Romans having a harder time.
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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Corwin1980 wrote:
lewpuls wrote:
The color combinations are different in B3


Could you tell us a bit more about that? I'm curious because I too would be worried to have Romans having a harder time.


Some material is posted on the Yahoo Groups Eurobrit site, including the present colors, I believe.

I'm going to be off the net most likely for a couple weeks beginning Wednesday, so I'm unlikely to be posting for a while.

Lew
 
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