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Revolution: The Dutch Revolt 1568-1648» Forums » Rules

Subject: Influence (rule 6.16) rss

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Hayden Scott
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R:tDR rule 6.16 wrote:
The markers on the Allegience Track are then moved accordingly in game turn order (exception: the Nobility always acts last, see above), 1 space for each advantage in the appropriate direction. There is no limit to the available funds that may be committed to any city but the maximum move on the Track is 3 spaces ...

Play Note: It may be helpful to use a spare status marker to track the allegience changes. After all expenditures and their effects have been resolved, the allegience marker can then be moved up to 3 spaces toward the temporary marker. (Underlined added.)


1. Why does the rule refer to a player's "advantage"? It seems to imply that a player moves according to the net positive difference in the respective funds allocated to a city. I appreciate the example does not seem to apply such a notion; so what's the significance of "advantage" in the rule?

2. "The maximum move on the track is 3 spaces". Is that a reference only to the final move of the allegience marker towards the temporary marker (as referred to in the Play Note)? That is, can the temporary marker be moved more than 3 spaces (assuming the temporary marker does not reach the edge of the display)? If the temporary marker cannot be moved more than 3 spaces, then why would a player ever place more than 3 pieces (as the rules permit)?
 
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Steve Bachman
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Hayden wrote:
R:tDR rule 6.16 wrote:
The markers on the Allegience Track are then moved accordingly in game turn order (exception: the Nobility always acts last, see above), 1 space for each advantage in the appropriate direction. There is no limit to the available funds that may be committed to any city but the maximum move on the Track is 3 spaces ...

Play Note: It may be helpful to use a spare status marker to track the allegience changes. After all expenditures and their effects have been resolved, the allegience marker can then be moved up to 3 spaces toward the temporary marker. (Underlined added.)


1. Why does the rule refer to a player's "advantage"? It seems to imply that a player moves according to the net positive difference in the respective funds allocated to a city. I appreciate the example does not seem to apply such a notion; so what's the significance of "advantage" in the rule?

2. "The maximum move on the track is 3 spaces". Is that a reference only to the final move of the allegience marker towards the temporary marker (as referred to in the Play Note)? That is, can the temporary marker be moved more than 3 spaces (assuming the temporary marker does not reach the edge of the display)? If the temporary marker cannot be moved more than 3 spaces, then why would a player ever place more than 3 pieces (as the rules permit)?

1. I'll have to check in to why the term "advantage" was used, but the example is there to clarify your question - each unit spent from treasury will move the marker one space in that faction's direction.
2. It is a reference to the the actual allegiance marker, not necessarily the temporary one if used. The temporary marker moves as dictated by the treasury spent - limited to the edges of the table - and then the actual marker moves up to three spaces towards the temporary one.

Hope this helps.
 
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Hayden Scott
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Steve,

Thanks for the quick response. Does that mean that there is never a reason to place more than 3 money pieces?
 
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Steve Bachman
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hayden wrote:
Steve,

Thanks for the quick response. Does that mean that there is never a reason to place more than 3 money pieces?

There could be. If, for example, the Catholics place 3 units on Utrecht, the Reformers may want to place 6 units themselves to not only negate the Catholic expenditure, but to swing the allegiance towards their end of the scale too. Likewise, the Catholics may want to spend more than three to get the temporary marker to the extreme left column - even if the status marker can't move that far - to make it prohibitively expensive for the Reformers to counter.
 
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Hayden Scott
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Ward wrote:
hayden wrote:
Steve,

Thanks for the quick response. Does that mean that there is never a reason to place more than 3 money pieces?

There could be. If, for example, the Catholics place 3 units on Utrecht, the Reformers may want to place 6 units themselves to not only negate the Catholic expenditure, but to swing the allegiance towards their end of the scale too. Likewise, the Catholics may want to spend more than three to get the temporary marker to the extreme left column - even if the status marker can't move that far - to make it prohibitively expensive for the Reformers to counter.


Okay, now we're getting somewhere. If what you are suggesting is that each player can move the allegiance marker as many spaces as they bid money pieces (subject to the edges of the scale), even if movement in excess of 3 spaces is involved, then that makes sense to me.

BUT that is not what the rules say.

First, the rules state that "[t]hat the markers on the Allegience Track are then moved in turn order".

Second, the rules state that "the maximum move on the track is 3 spaces".

Third, the example refers to the movement of the "allegience marker".

All this means, so far as I can reasonably discern, that a player can never move the marker themselves more than 3 spaces. Unfortunately, the example does not help as it does not deal with a money bid of more than 3 money pieces. Furthermore, the "Play Note" does not assist on this particular matter either because it can apply in situations that involve individual movements of less than 3 spaces (as the example itself shows).

Having said that, I don't want to play it that way because it reduces the benefit of having money over other players.

 
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Steve Bachman
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Hayden wrote:
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. If what you are suggesting is that each player can move the allegiance marker as many spaces as they bid money pieces (subject to the edges of the scale), even if movement in excess of 3 spaces is involved, then that makes sense to me.

BUT that is not what the rules say.

First, the rules state that "[t]hat the markers on the Allegience Track are then moved in turn order".

Second, the rules state that "the maximum move on the track is 3 spaces".

Third, the example refers to the movement of the "allegience marker".

All this means, so far as I can reasonably discern, that a player can never move the marker themselves more than 3 spaces. Unfortunately, the example does not help as it does not deal with a money bid of more than 3 money pieces. Furthermore, the "Play Note" does not assist on this particular matter either because it can apply in situations that involve individual movements of less than 3 spaces (as the example itself shows).

Having said that, I don't want to play it that way because it reduces the benefit of having money over other players.

Valid point, the example probably should have included a faction spending more than 3 units from treasury on a single city. I didn't think it was a question requiring clarification as the portion of the rules that you omitted clearly states that there is no limit to the number of units a faction may spend on a city. I suppose one could argue, as you do, that even though a faction is not limited to how much it can spend, only the first three units it spends will actually have an impact. As you point out, it makes little sense for that to be the case as often treasury is too valuable to be 'burned', especially considering all of the cities it could be effectively spent on. The only sensible instance where your example would come into play would be as part of a diplomatic agreement (emptying one's treasury as a concession to a diplomatic partner).

Bottom line, the limit of 3 spaces is on the net move of the Allegiance Marker from it's original location, not on it's movement based on faction expenditures or on the temporary marker if used.
 
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Richard Young
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The pieces each player allocates are resolved in "turn order" and the marker moved as appropriate. Thus, an individual expenditure of more than six (worst case) would only be to get pieces back into your stock. The ability of the Nobility to have their expenditures resolved last (regardless of where they are in the nornal turn order) is therefore a huge adantage!
 
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Graham Lockwood
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I received a reply from Uli Blennmann on this subject quite a while ago and he agreed with the following statement I put to him:

(1) Rule 6.16 – Influence:
Rulebook quote: “….The markers on the allegiance track are then moved in game turn order (Exception: the Nobility always acts last) one space for each unit advantage in the appropriate direction……”

Question: What does ‘advantage’ mean in this rule context?

The term ‘advantage’ would normally be taken as meaning some sort of benefit bestowed on a player having a larger amount of capital than another player in a city box on the allegiance track. However, we can’t find anything in the rules showing how this can be applied. Instead we have opted for the correct resolution of this phase as indicated in the rulebook example shown in that section as follows:

(a) The first player, in turn order, places his/her money piece(s) down on the space containing the name of the city(s) he/she wishes to influence.
(b) The second player may also do the same, but should place his/her pieces under the preceding players’ pieces when they exist in a city box.
(c) Other players follow the same procedure so that a stack of money pieces on a city box is shown as a single stack with the first players’ money on top, down to the last players’ at the bottom.
(d) After this process, the Nobility players’ money piece(s) are removed from their position in the stack and are placed at the bottom of that stack (if not already so).
(e) Starting with the top piece and working down to the bottom, each piece moves the status marker in the relevant direction (if it is able), with the provision that no more than 3 different and adjacent influence boxes may be moved through by the status marker.
This interpretation sees the term ‘advantage’ as being irrelevant and totally redundant to the above process.


Note that any player may put up a many (Guilders) as he wishes, but ultimately only a maximum of three will effect the influence track.
If a player is low or out of resource (political) pieces, he may wish to put up more than 3 pieces in order to convert those to resource pieces.
 
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Graham Lockwood
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..forget the above drivel. I've just downloaded the updated rules PDF and it seems what Uli originally confirmed with me and what's in the new rulebook are two separate things.
It would seem from the updated ruleset that the maximum movement a status marker may move on the influence track is three spaces (not, as I've been playing, three spaces per faction), choose how many Guiders are committed by the players.

...and they're still sticking to using the word 'advantage' in the new rules...shake
 
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Richard Young
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The question may still remain as to whether the marker can only move three spaces at a time (ie. per faction), or three spaces from where it began at the begining of this phase (the way many have interpreted it). If the former is correct then indeed three pieces would be the maximum effective investment per city; if the latter, then you could see a swing of six (ie. from one extreme to the other). Sounds like the latter interpretation is what is being currently touted? Pretty important to get a definitive ruling on this I would think...
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Steve Bachman
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Bubslug wrote:
The question may still remain as to whether the marker can only move three spaces at a time (ie. per faction), or three spaces from where it began at the begining of this phase (the way many have interpreted it). If the former is correct then indeed three pieces would be the maximum effective investment per city; if the latter, then you could see a swing of six (ie. from one extreme to the other). Sounds like the latter interpretation is what is being currently touted? Pretty important to get a definitive ruling on this I would think...

The latter is correct, but you "swing of six" is incorrect. With a maximum of three spaces from the starting position, the biggest swing would be three.
 
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Richard Young
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Poor choice of words on my part I fear. If the maximum marker move is three spaces per faction period, then three pieces is the maximum effective investment (more would be to simply get pieces rotated back into stock).

However, if the rule is that the marker can end up no further than three spaces from where it started, at any point, then one faction's investment of three in one direction can first be countered (three pieces) and then sent three spaces in the other direction by the next faction to play (for a total of six pieces effectively invested). At no time in this example is the marker more than three spaces from where it started (assumes the marker had a range of plus or minus three to start with, which is often the case, and is what I referred to as a "swing of six" as far as the specific faction was concerned). Makes quite a difference! Regardless of which way the rule is interpreted, the Nobility has the greatest final influence on where the marker will end up, and is a big part of why it is my favorite faction to play.
 
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Steve Bachman
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The net result of Influence is a maximum of 3 spaces from the starting position. A faction can spend as much as it likes, even swinging a temporary marker from Strongly Catholic to Strongly Reformed, but the status marker will only move at most three spaces towards the temporary one.

This seems to me to be a fairly good simulation of how it would be. The citizens are not so fickle as to be converted from one extreme to the other in one turn, but there wouldn't be a limit as to how much a faction could expend on the effort to get the conversion moving in the desired direction.

Is there anything about this interpretation that doesn't make sense? Please let me know.
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Graham Lockwood
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IMHO, the following quote from the (new) rulebook suggests that each faction in turn can potentially move the status marker on the influence track up to three spaces (using a spare marker to track each factions movement) and then when all are done, the allegiance marker can be placed onto the box where the temporary marker now resides unless it is more than three spaces away, in which case the last sentence of the play note is enacted.

You know what? As much as this is supposed to be fix the ambiguity in the original rules, I think that they should have at least replaced the word 'can' with 'must' & deleted 'up to' in the last sentence.

(New rules page 15 col 2)
Play Note: It may be helpful to use a spare status marker
to track the allegiance changes. After all expenditures and
their effects have been resolved, the allegiance marker can
then be moved up to 3 spaces towards the temporary marker.
 
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Richard Young
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Quote:
Graham Lockwood wrote: IMHO, the following quote from the (new) rulebook suggests that each faction in turn can potentially move the status marker on the influence track up to three spaces (using a spare marker to track each factions movement) and then when all are done, the allegiance marker can be placed onto the box where the temporary marker now resides unless it is more than three spaces away, in which case the last sentence of the play note is enacted.
(emphasis mine)

Quote:
Steve Bachman wrote: A faction can spend as much as it likes, even swinging a temporary marker from Strongly Catholic to Strongly Reformed, but the status marker will only move at most three spaces towards the temporary one
(emphasis mine)

Unless I'm cross-eyed, you both can't be right and is the whole point of this thread, yes? We all agree that the final resting place of the marker can't be more than three spaces from where it started, but the way factions get to use their influence along the way makes a great deal of difference! Which is it?!?
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Graham Lockwood
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I can only quote from the new rule book and offer my interpretation of the rules.


Page 15.
6.16 Influence.
3rd paragraph.......
The markers on the Allegiance Track are then moved
accordingly in game turn order (exception: the Nobility
always acts last, see above), 1 space for each unit
advantage in the appropriate direction. There is no limit
to the available funds that may be committed to any city
but the maximum move on the Track is 3 spaces. All
committed money pieces, whether successful or not, are
then returned to that faction´s “stock”.



I take this to mean that the maximum move is up to three spaces for each faction, as I read it in the context of the previous sentence.
As an example, if a marker were in the center column, the Catholic player could move the marker three to the left, the Burgher three to the right and then the Reformer another three to the right. The marker started in the center column and ended up in the far right column....but it still has only moved three spaces away from its original position.

What do you think, Richard?
 
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Steve Bachman
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Bubslug wrote:
Unless I'm cross-eyed, you both can't be right and is the whole point of this thread, yes? We all agree that the final resting place of the marker can't be more than three spaces from where it started, but the way factions get to use their influence along the way makes a great deal of difference! Which is it?!?

Here's the thing, if there is a debate over the whether the "maximum move on the Track is 3 spaces" applies to each faction or not, then it can not be said that all are in agreement that the maximum net move of the status marker is 3 spaces. The only other place in the section that mentions the 3 space limit is in the example. The rules themselves only mention it in the above quote. If the limit is for each faction, then the limit on net movement is not specified in the rules. Examples of play are given to clarify or illustrate rules, not define them. Therefore, if one has a question about what the 3 space limit applies to - the factions or the net change - the answer is found in the example, which explicitly states that it is the latter.

I think the rules for all games should be treated as a unit, not taken apart piece by piece out of context. In the context of the remainder of the Influence section, the answer is clear thanks to the example. Granted, the wording of the original paragraph was certainly not the best. Being that I was involved in the updates, I apologize for not rewording that paragraph. We looked at all of the debates that surrounded the original published rules and looked to put them to bed with clarifications. Looking back in my notes, the debate over the 3 space limit was known to be between factions versus net change and it was determined that the limit on net change needed to be specified. That is why the example given was changed to illustrate (a) that unsuccessful funds [Habsburgs] were returned to stock; and (b) that the maximum change was 3 spaces. I regret not suggesting that the Reformers spend 4 units to illustrate that (c) a faction could spend more than 3 units on a city and move the temporary marker the same amount, if possible. Slightly rewording the paragraph in question would have been good as well.

Anyhow, the answer is that each faction can spend unlimited treasury on any given city and move the status marker the same amount (up to the edge of the chart of course), but when all is said and done, the status marker can not be more than 3 spaces away from the location it was in at the start of the phase.
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Richard Young
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Thanks Steve. I think your discussion points out the problem I was having with the example and I agree it might have been helpful to show how a faction could spend more than three pieces, and actually (if only temporarily) move the marker more than that as well. Your explanation lines up exactly with the way we have been treating the issue and never had any question about it until recently.

Another way a faction could spend a lot of money and not have a great effect of course is in the awkwardly phrased "faction advantage" business. The first faction (say Catholics) spends ten pieces to move the marker in a favorable direction (never mind that baring any further investments, it would only move three; or, that there aren't ten spaces available in any event). I would argue that nothing should be moved until the next faction's investment is checked and the difference ("advantage") noted. Lets say the next faction to go is the Reformers who, to get anything for themselves, will first have to match the ten that the Catholics spent and then add whatever on top of that which could perhaps actually move the marker. Let's say that investment was one piece (11 pieces total was all they could afford). Again, baring any further investment, the marker would move one space in the Reform direction. The Hapsburgs are next and they throw one piece at the problem in effect cancelling out what the Reformers had done (how's that for leverage!). The Burghers now come and throw four pieces on the same city which would have the marker on the move again toward Reform country. The Nobility could see where that would have things end up (which must be done in any event just to see which direction a Nobility bribe would have to be applied if they were to make one) and decide that with three pieces they can cancel out enough of the Burgher's bribe to have the marker end up where they want which is one space toward the Reform end but still safely in the middle area.

A lot of money has been spent (perhaps unrealistically?) on one city with the end result being only a one space marker movement. We also note here that had the Nobility decided to stay on the sidelines, the marker would only have been moved three spaces toward the Reform side (not four).

This approach to resolving investments allows for a Reform (or Catholic) effort to help pin a marker that is already pegged as far as it can go in their direction in order to try to ensure that it stays there (the "what have you done for me lately" theory of city allegiance). It gives meaning to the phrase in the rules regarding factions being able to spend "whatever they wish," but only the "advantage" (net difference) of the subsequent faction's investment compared to the preceding faction being actually applied, faction by faction, (to a final maximum of three spaces from where the marker began). Determining whether a marker would "hit the wall" (thus truncating a potential move of "up to three") is saved for the final application of influence once all the respective faction's advantages have been determined. This is how we have been interpreting the "faction advantage" phrase, so I would welcome correction here if anything regarding what we've been closing in on here has been offended (notwithstanding this interpretation appears to fly in the face of the admittedly inadequate "illustration" now given in the rules).
 
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Graham Lockwood
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Steve,
By the amount of posts in the way of replies to questions about Revolution in this particular forum & the fact you have stated that you were involved in the production of the new rulebook, I therefore conclude that you are a rules moderator for this game. Is this assumption correct?

I'd really like to get a handle on this thread, in that case (since it's driving me nuts), so sorry if I appear pedantic about this. Also, Steve, I'm not trying to 'trap' you or 'catch you out' - I've got better things to do. The reason why I'm pursuing this is that we are playing this game on the weekend & I'd like to play the damn thing right for once.

Can you give me a yes or no answer to the following questions:

Q1:If a player has enough money and given there are spaces available, an individual player movement of the status marker on the influence track could be anywhere between one and six spaces. Is this a correct assumption?

Q2:In the example I give below:
The Reformer player is the first player in the current game turn and wishes to influence (say) Aachen. The marker resides in the far left Catholic space. The Reformer commits six (Guilders) for influence.
When it comes round to the Reformer player status marker movement for Aachen (choose whether or not other players have committed money for Aachen also), will he move the marker six boxes to the right and then remove his money?

Q3:In the example given above, the Reformer player is the only one that has committed money for Aachen. After moving his marker six spaces to the right, the other players point out that three boxes is the maximum that the rules allow a marker to be moved from its original position at the start of the turn and therefore the marker is moved back to the left, three boxes, to finally reside in the center column. Is this a correct assumption?


(while this was being composed, I note that Richard now has a new post before me).






 
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Mathijs Booden
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No doubt this will not convince anyone in this thread, but the new rulebook seems quite clear to me.

- The maximum net move of the status marker is three spaces. This is explicitly stated.

- There is no maximum move per faction for the imaginary status marker. This is implicit in the note that there is no limit to the expenditure per faction.
To interpret that note to mean that players can burn their money to no advantage is way out. I have never come across a situation where I had nothing useful to do with my money. I agree that the example should have had a faction spending four guilders.

- Both the imaginary and the real status markers cannot move beyond the outermost columns. This is explicitly stated in the example, where the Habsburg money is said to be wasted.

Unequivocal, right?

Looking forward to playing with this new rulebook when my group starts the next PBEM game. The current one is not quite done though, we're in turn four after 13 months of playing
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