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Subject: Pariah concerns rss

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Matt Onyx
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Don't get me wrong, it looks great and it's certainly an interesting idea. But the whole "You can't fight anything else" and "You have to have specific innovations to fight it" thing sounds like a really dangerous combo. Do you still get resources for the years you can't hunt? If not, how many years does it take to kill it? I feel like without more info it seems like a huge downside with no real positives to it.
(Maybe that's just my interpretation, but... It is concerning)
 
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Kyle Currie
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mattonyx wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it looks great and it's certainly an interesting idea. But the whole "You can't fight anything else" and "You have to have specific innovations to fight it" thing sounds like a really dangerous combo. Do you still get resources for the years you can't hunt? If not, how many years does it take to kill it? I feel like without more info it seems like a huge downside with no real positives to it.
(Maybe that's just my interpretation, but... It is concerning)


It's a little early to be concerned isn't it? Adam won't release the content unless its enjoyable, fits with his vision of the game, and is balanced along with everything else. The original concept might completely change! This happened with a couple expansions from the first Kickstarter.

You really just shouldn't read too much into these VERY early content pitches - there's a reason that "new" expansions aren't set for delivery until 2019. There's still a lot to develop and test, which means there's not really anything to worry about right now
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Hellena Handbasket
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I actually am kind of excited by the idea of it. A lot of the fun in Kingdom Death comes from the unique situations of adversity that crop up that you have to adapt to. This proposed expansion provides a unique situation of adversity and the tools to adapt to it. There's a reasonable chance this expansion could be really interesting. There's also the chance, of course, that the Pariah ends up being poorly balanced and causing frustration rather than fun, but I feel that's more of an individual balance issue (which all new expansions are impacted by) than an issue inherrent in this particular expansion's mechanics.
 
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IA Seldon
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The original concept behind the Lion God was that he would come hunting down the settlement if you killed too many White Lions. That was 100% altered to become a brutal fight against a maddened king deep within his abandoned city.

Anything offered from the new expansions are, so far, just test bed ideas. Any relations to a final product might be transitional.
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Montgomery Mullen
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I was going to bring up the Lion God and the Manhunter as examples of things that ended up being quite different from the original pitch, but I was ninja'd.

One thing for me is certain: if the lore states that the Pariah is somehow responsible for FEET, I will make it my life purpose to kick the crap out of him.
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IA Seldon
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4rch1t3ct wrote:


One thing for me is certain: if the lore states that the Pariah is somehow responsible for FEET, I will make it my life purpose to kick the crap out of him.


...my bloodlust for the Pariah has increased to a level matching the furnace fires of the Sun! Kill the bastard!
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IASeldon wrote:
The original concept behind the Lion God was that he would come hunting down the settlement if you killed too many White Lions. That was 100% altered to become a brutal fight against a maddened king deep within his abandoned city.

Anything offered from the new expansions are, so far, just test bed ideas. Any relations to a final product might be transitional.


And this is ok if you choose the all-in option because you don't have to pick any expansion. You just want the overall experience to be great.

But if some people are on a budget (which is the case for a lot of people), they pick carefully their expansions according to the synopsis.
I'm not that sure Poots can be so casual and completely change the pitch.
It's not a critique against Poots. I just say that it shouldn't work that way.
You can change the details to improve things but you should still stay faithful to the original teaser because people invest money according to it.
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baylock wrote:
IASeldon wrote:
The original concept behind the Lion God was that he would come hunting down the settlement if you killed too many White Lions. That was 100% altered to become a brutal fight against a maddened king deep within his abandoned city.

Anything offered from the new expansions are, so far, just test bed ideas. Any relations to a final product might be transitional.


And this is ok if you choose the all-in option because you don't have to pick any expansion. You just want the overall experience to be great.

But if some people are on a budget (which is the case for a lot of people), they pick carefully their expansions according to the synopsis.
I'm not that sure Poots can be so casual and completely change the pitch.
It's not a critique against Poots. I just say that it shouldn't work that way.
You can change the details to improve things but you should still stay faithful to the original teaser because people invest money according to it.


That is definitely a fair point. But on the other hand, if something simply isn't working during testing I think most would agree it is better to change it to something different rather than push out something subpar. Remember this isn't a sales pitch this is a Kickstarter where many of the expansions will very much be in their infancy, though some will have had work already like the ram. You sort of have the choice of backing now and risking that an expansion will change (or possibly even cancel like the Lantern Festival) or holding off and waiting until closer to retail when the true contents are known. KS is a risk and its up to the individual to manage that risk to fit themselves best particularly on a budget.
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strewart wrote:
KS is a risk and its up to the individual to manage that risk to fit themselves best particularly on a budget.


Exactly, which is why it seems odd that the first response to someone with a concern is "It's too early to be concerned." This is exactly the time to be concerned - before you pay your money. And if you have those concerns, don't drop money on this particular expansion. I'm not sure there will be much more information before the end of the campaign because it's so early in development, and if anybody is less that confident in Adam's ability to deliver, then not pledging (at least for this expansion) is the right call for that person.

To say someone shouldn't read too much into an early pitch when an advance payment is involved seems to me to be the very opposite of pledging responsibly.
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Matt Onyx
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IASeldon wrote:
The original concept behind the Lion God was that he would come hunting down the settlement if you killed too many White Lions. That was 100% altered to become a brutal fight against a maddened king deep within his abandoned city.

Anything offered from the new expansions are, so far, just test bed ideas. Any relations to a final product might be transitional.

And, to be fair, the Lion God is one of the worst expansions (given the immense level of difficulty and relative impossibility of preparation for it).
But seriously, if now isn't the time to be concerned - when is? When the kickstarter is over and i cant get it, only to see sweeping changes a month or two down the line? When the expansion comes out with no changes, and ends up being another poorly balanced unfun expansion?
I mean, I guess I can kind kf understand the appeal. The showdown seems like fun, and if it just limited you (take damage before a hunt, lose survival, etc.) Instead of "no resources, no experience, no rewards of any type until you find specific innovations and then complete the fight successfully." I might be more interested.
(To be fair, I'm also not a fan of the nightmare Ram concept, but that's a different discussion)
Guess I'll just hang iut and keep hoping for the Ringtail Fox, keeping opinions to myself until then.
 
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mattonyx wrote:
IASeldon wrote:
The original concept behind the Lion God was that he would come hunting down the settlement if you killed too many White Lions. That was 100% altered to become a brutal fight against a maddened king deep within his abandoned city.

Anything offered from the new expansions are, so far, just test bed ideas. Any relations to a final product might be transitional.

And, to be fair, the Lion God is one of the worst expansions (given the immense level of difficulty and relative impossibility of preparation for it).
But seriously, if now isn't the time to be concerned - when is? When the kickstarter is over and i cant get it, only to see sweeping changes a month or two down the line? When the expansion comes out with no changes, and ends up being another poorly balanced unfun expansion?
I mean, I guess I can kind kf understand the appeal. The showdown seems like fun, and if it just limited you (take damage before a hunt, lose survival, etc.) Instead of "no resources, no experience, no rewards of any type until you find specific innovations and then complete the fight successfully." I might be more interested.
(To be fair, I'm also not a fan of the nightmare Ram concept, but that's a different discussion)
Guess I'll just hang iut and keep hoping for the Ringtail Fox, keeping opinions to myself until then.


Nemesis monsters do tend to increase difficulty and are the main part of the game that you cannot comfortably beat since you can't control when to fight them. If you don't like the sound of it restricting your settlement for a few years then it probably isn't a good expansion for you so don't buy it. No need to buy them all, they will be available at retail later and probably with some discounts so you can get them when you know whats in them.
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that Matt
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
To say someone shouldn't read too much into an early pitch when an advance payment is involved seems to me to be the very opposite of pledging responsibly.

No, pledging responsibly means exactly that: recognizing the uncertainty associated with what you are getting into. If you can't handle that uncertainty, don't pledge. If you don't trust Poots to give you your $40 worth, don't pledge.
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tumorous wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
To say someone shouldn't read too much into an early pitch when an advance payment is involved seems to me to be the very opposite of pledging responsibly.

No, pledging responsibly means exactly that: recognizing the uncertainty associated with what you are getting into. If you can't handle that uncertainty, don't pledge. If you don't trust Poots to give you your $40 worth, don't pledge.


What I'm saying is, you are being asked for some money, and may only have those few paragraphs of text to make your decision on. If that's all you've got to go on (besides your belief in Adam as an artist), and that information is giving you concerns, then don't dismiss those concerns as "Oh, it's too early to be concerned, I shouldn't read too much into it." Now, before you pay your money, is the time to ask questions to get the answers to those concerns, and if during the campaign those concerns remain unanswered, then you shouldn't pledge.

Now is definitely not too early to be concerned. Once you have pledged and your money is locked it, it's already too late.
 
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
tumorous wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
To say someone shouldn't read too much into an early pitch when an advance payment is involved seems to me to be the very opposite of pledging responsibly.

No, pledging responsibly means exactly that: recognizing the uncertainty associated with what you are getting into. If you can't handle that uncertainty, don't pledge. If you don't trust Poots to give you your $40 worth, don't pledge.


What I'm saying is, you are being asked for some money, and may only have those few paragraphs of text to make your decision on. If that's all you've got to go on (besides your belief in Adam as an artist), and that information is giving you concerns, then don't dismiss those concerns as "Oh, it's too early to be concerned, I shouldn't read too much into it." Now, before you pay your money, is the time to ask questions to get the answers to those concerns, and if during the campaign those concerns remain unanswered, then you shouldn't pledge.

Now is definitely not too early to be concerned. Once you have pledged and your money is locked it, it's already too late.


Of course.

Pledge responsibly but don't pay attention to the mini as it might change. Don't pay attention to the lore as it might change, don't pay attention to the mechanic as it might change and don't raise any concern about it as it might change.

And this all because it's you pledging and not buying.
I think some take the concept of pledging to an absurd level.

Poots is trustworthy for those who know him.
But you don't HAVE to know him to pledge.
And yes, pledging responsibly is to make your homework before you invest.
Being responsible is NOT only about accepting that your money can be lost if things go bad.
It's about being as sure as possible that what you'll get is what you thought you pledged for.

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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
tumorous wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
To say someone shouldn't read too much into an early pitch when an advance payment is involved seems to me to be the very opposite of pledging responsibly.

No, pledging responsibly means exactly that: recognizing the uncertainty associated with what you are getting into. If you can't handle that uncertainty, don't pledge. If you don't trust Poots to give you your $40 worth, don't pledge.


What I'm saying is, you are being asked for some money, and may only have those few paragraphs of text to make your decision on. If that's all you've got to go on (besides your belief in Adam as an artist), and that information is giving you concerns, then don't dismiss those concerns as "Oh, it's too early to be concerned, I shouldn't read too much into it." Now, before you pay your money, is the time to ask questions to get the answers to those concerns, and if during the campaign those concerns remain unanswered, then you shouldn't pledge.

Now is definitely not too early to be concerned. Once you have pledged and your money is locked it, it's already too late.

What I'm saying, to follow through your reply, is that "concerns" of this kind are entirely out of place in this campaign. You shouldn't expect to receive any definitive answers on the details of these expansions. That's the nature of this campaign.

So it's too early to be concerned, because there is no point at which those concerns are useful at all. If these expansion ideas cause you to doubt whether you'd enjoy them, don't pledge. Nothing is going to be finalized for your approval in the course of this campaign.
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For example: Poots decides that the two fight settings -- one in settlement, one out -- don't work out in practice. Scraps one, changes up the contents, overhauls the expansion.

If that news would cause you woe, I'd advise against pledging.
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mattonyx wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it looks great and it's certainly an interesting idea. But the whole "You can't fight anything else" and "You have to have specific innovations to fight it" thing sounds like a really dangerous combo. Do you still get resources for the years you can't hunt? If not, how many years does it take to kill it? I feel like without more info it seems like a huge downside with no real positives to it.
(Maybe that's just my interpretation, but... It is concerning)


Just like with the first campaign, some of the expansions will turn out better than others. You won't really know until long after you have to decide what to pledge for. I'd say only get the expansions that really grab you, either you love the model or the concept behind the encounter or whatever. They still might end up being so-so expansions, but at least there should be something you personally like about them. If you aren't sure about one, I'd say don't pledge for it.
 
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tumorous wrote:

What I'm saying, to follow through your reply, is that "concerns" of this kind are entirely out of place in this campaign. You shouldn't expect to receive any definitive answers on the details of these expansions. That's the nature of this campaign.

So it's too early to be concerned, because there is no point at which those concerns are useful at all. If these expansion ideas cause you to doubt whether you'd enjoy them, don't pledge. Nothing is going to be finalized for your approval in the course of this campaign.


Exactly what I meant by my first post. +1. You're not going to see the "final" version of anything for at least 2 years. So if the bare bones concept pitch causes you any concern, don't pick up that expansion. Expect to get great content that will be in the same ballpark as the pitch, and with the same great Monsters and figures. But I guarantee at least 1 expansion will be completely overhauled by the time they get delivered, and you have to accept that as a hard fact about this campaign.

This is Kickstarter in the truest sense - giving a non-traditional creator the funds he needs to create things he wouldn't otherwise be able to create. Everything was just a concept, until now, when we've given the team the funds to turn that concept into reality. And like anything else, some things will be scrapped and improved upon before they get finalized. You're either on board with that idea, or you're not, and both sides of that have their merits and solid arguments.
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tumorous wrote:


So it's too early to be concerned, because there is no point at which those concerns are useful at all.


I guess I just find it interesting that it's too early for concerns, but not too early for excitement.

I think if people have concerns, they should voice them; they may get a bit more information from Adam (but probably won't), or someone who might know a bit more than they do might have something to add. Open discussion does help people to nail down what they want, and what they can expect. And that can only be a good thing. Nobody wants the forums to turn into a cesspit in two years time when thousands of disgruntled backers discover the thing they backed isn't the thing they thought they backed.

But whatever, it doesn't really matter to me either way. I am backing for the upgrade pack so I can have the best possible version of the base game, and that's all I'm interested in.
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