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Subject: Can I use Artemis power to build a shrine on a revealed island tile? rss

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Carlos Brito
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The manual says about Artemis power:

Uncover a face down island tile. Take the corresponding reward.

So when I reveal the tile I can build a shrine if the just revealed tile has my color.

Does the tile need to be face down for that power to be used? Or can I use it to build a shrine on an island tile someone else revealed and is far away from my ship to complete my task?

I think it would make sense but the text in the manual doesn't seem to leave room for this interpretation.
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Jordan Booth
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Seems pretty clear that you perform the action on a face down tile only.
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Seth Jaffee
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brito wrote:
The manual says about Artemis power:

Uncover a face down island tile. Take the corresponding reward.

So when I reveal the tile I can build a shrine if the just revealed tile has my color.

Does the tile need to be face down for that power to be used? Or can I use it to build a shrine on an island tile someone else revealed and is far away from my ship to complete my task?

I think it would make sense but the text in the manual doesn't seem to leave room for this interpretation.

Artemis give you an EXPLORE action, not a BUILD A SHRINE action, so you may only flip up a face down tile (which may result in you placing a shrine), not build a shrine on an already face-up tile.
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Carlos Brito
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So I can build a shrine if the tile (assuming it has my color) is face down but I can't if the same tile is face up?

Maybe mechanically it could make sense somehow but thematically it doesn't (though I admit it is not a rare case in an eurogame).

The strength of Artemis power is greatly reduced because building a shrine at distance is much better than simply revealing a tile, nice as the rewards involved could be. And if someone reveals one of my tiles and I have Artemis ready to be used then it could harm me instead of help me in some cases. Other players could even do this on purpose in some situations, adding a cut-throat aspect to the game that didn't seem to exist.
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Philip Mazzone
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We've been using her power as follows : Flip over a face down tile. No matter what the color is (even your own) take the symbol reward. Then on a future turn (if it was your color), you still must sail there to erect your shrine. Hopefully thats correct.
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Carlos Brito
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Xhawk wrote:
We've been using her power as follows : Flip over a face down tile. No matter what the color is (even your own) take the symbol reward. Then on a future turn (if it was your color), you still must sail there to erect your shrine. Hopefully thats correct.


Thematically it would make more sense. But I think it's much more probable that Seth and Jordan are right and not you.

The rule that describes the explore action (and in principle Artemis power is to explore at distance) says that after you reveal the tile, if the tile colour matches your own you can choose a reward between (a) build your shrine or (b) get the reward for the symbol revealed.

For the rule to be what you say then there would have to be a line in the rules explicitly stating that the use of Artemis power excludes the possibility of choosing the first possible reward. Such a statement doesn't exist in the rules (as doesn't exist the line saying that you can can use Artemis power with a face-up tile).

But I agree that the rules as they are written are strange and the things would make more sense if they were as I say (you can use Artemis power with a revealed tile) or as you say (you can never build a shrine with Artemis power). Maybe an official clarification is necessary.

In fact in my first game, I was teaching the game to others and I taught the rules exactly as they were written (you use Artemis power to reveal a face-down tile and collect the reward). But in the middle of the game, someone else used the Artemis power to build a shrine in an already revealed tile. It made so much sense that I didn't object and in fact in my 2nd game (with other players) exactly the same thing happened. After my 3rd game, again with a 3rd group of players, I myself tried to do this (by then I was thinking it was correct) and then another player objected the opposite, that I wasn't using Artemis exactly as I had explained.
 
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Brad103
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sedjtroll wrote:
Artemis give you an EXPLORE action, not a BUILD A SHRINE action, so you may only flip up a face down tile (which may result in you placing a shrine), not build a shrine on an already face-up tile.


Pretty much this ^

As in the rule book: Artemis: Uncover a face down Island Tile. Take the corresponding reward (page 11, Action “Explore an Island”).
It's referencing the Explore an Island tile rule:
Uncover the Island Tile, place it face up on the island space and receive the corresponding reward:
- If the color of the image matches 1 of your Zeus Tiles, place 1 of your Shrines on the Island Tile. Take the reward of the Zeus Tile and discard the Zeus Tile.
- If the image doesn’t match 1 of your Zeus Tiles, take a reward based on the depicted Greek letter


I guess being able to build on an already explored tile would make this god more powerful, but as it stands, Artemis is pretty powerful already.
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Carlos Brito
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Braffe wrote:
I guess being able to build on an already explored tile would make this god more powerful, but as it stands, Artemis is pretty powerful already.


Yes, this would be powerful but I thought the Gods powers unbalanced nonethless. Poseidon and Aphrodite being so much better than the others.
Hermes is nice too, but it only makes sense if you use it once in the entire game (you go to the border of the board to load a statue and then load 2 at the same time, what is really nice).

Apollo and Ares are weak. Ares only saves a die and one or 2 favor tokens because monsters are not that hard to beat if you roll the combat die 2 or 3 times. Apollo is slightly better to mitigate real bad luck in a dice roll, but as you roll 3 dice and can store favor tiles and as you usually have many nice uses for your dice, it seems better to invest in the other gods.

Artemis would be equivalent to Poseidon and Aphrodite, imo, if her power was as I thought (in fact it would be similar to Poseidon, because you can teleport yourself to be close to a revealed tile matching your color, so the difference between the use of Poseidon and Artemis would be the use one additional die). Being as it seems to be, I consider her to be a 2nd rate goddess. If you want to use her to build a distant shrine, you have to spend several dice to inspect tiles, looking for the right position of your hidden tiles. If you want merely to reveal a random tile then it seems to be better to invest in other gods and reveal a tile that is close to your ship. There are usually several of those across the board.
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Brad103
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I'm trying to think of a good reply here, but I keep deleting it

I think I need more playthroughs to get a feel for the gods powers and how they stack up. I think they're all pretty balanced. In a two player game (all I've played so far) you'll only use each one once...maybe twice on a few. (I imagine in 3-4 player games it'd be more often). Each god is more of a clutch move though. Need a quick heal, use Aphrodite, need to kill a monster stress free, use Ares.

Need to throw down a temple in a far off island that you peeked at? Send Artemis to do it. I think they all can be used very well to give you an advantage, but it will depend on how you use them. I would think there would be a time in any game where Artemis would be able to be used to great potential. And all gods.

I guess if I were to rate them I'd go with this (best to worst):
Apollo - Ares - Aphrodite - Hermes - Artemis - Poseidon

But they're all near equals imho
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Carlos Brito
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Braffe wrote:
I'm trying to think of a good reply here, but I keep deleting it :)

I think I need more playthroughs to get a feel for the gods powers and how they stack up. I think they're all pretty balanced. In a two player game (all I've played so far) you'll only use each one once...maybe twice on a few. (I imagine in 3-4 player games it'd be more often). Each god is more of a clutch move though. Need a quick heal, use Aphrodite, need to kill a monster stress free, use Ares.

Need to throw down a temple in a far off island that you peeked at? Send Artemis to do it. I think they all can be used very well to give you an advantage, but it will depend on how you use them. I would think there would be a time in any game where Artemis would be able to be used to great potential. And all gods.

I guess if I were to rate them I'd go with this (best to worst):
Apollo - Ares - Aphrodite - Hermes - Artemis - Poseidon

But they're all near equals imho


Interesting to see how we differ. Well, I suppose I have to play more times as well, I have played 3 times, twice with 4, once with 3. I think the game works better with more players.

With more players, I think it's good to use your initial dice to raise the gods that interest you above zero, so they can rise in the scale as the other players roll their dice. With 4, 3 guys will roll their dice before you play again. I presume that's not so good with 2 players., though with 2 players the gods that go above zero, start their rise closer to the top.

With this you can use the gods more times, I presume.

I tend to value the gods in the number of actions they save you.

I like Poseidon because he can teleport you from one border of the board to the other, what has potential to save you many many actions. Note that you must go to the border of the board, even if it is to collect statues, but usually you may be forced to do this to perform other tasks, like picking offering or killing monsters if you are one of the last ones to go for a certain colour of offering or monster, because you'll pick the worst options. Besides Poseidon is ALWAYS useful. The utility of the other gods depend on the situation you are. Hermes and Ares for example, become useless if you have picked up all statues and killed all your monsters. They can become useless before they reach the top of the scale and before you have the chance to trigger their power.

Aphrodite also can save you many dice, if you use dice to get rid of wounds because usually the wounds come in different colours. If you don't use dice to reduce wounds then you'll eventually lose all 3 actions once in a while.

Hermes would be the most powerful, if it were not for the fact that you will use it only once in the whole game. You go to the border to collect one statue and you collect 2 at the same time, and you can choose whatever you want as the second colour! Certainly this saves you many many actions.

Ares only saves you an action (fight a monster) and usually 2 favor tokens (usually that's what you use to fight a monster). It saves you 2 actions. Besides, it's a good thing to go for monsters at the start of the game for 2 reasons: First, all players have to kill 2 monster of the same colours, if you let to kill those 2 monsters later, you'll have to pick the ones at the worst positions. Second, the benefit the equipment gained for killing monster is very nice and you profit more if you get it at the beginning. Doing so, it's quite probable that you'll have killed all 3 monsters before you get the chance to use Ares power.


Apollo is harder to evaluate. He mitigates bad luck. In principle, he saves you a certain number of favor tokens. In the beginning you have so many options to play that he is not so important. At the end you might be needing a very specific set of dice because there is not much left to do and he can be more important, but at the same time, you'll have collected companions and favor tokens to help you.

So I'd say the power of the gods (with the nerfed Artemis power) is:

Poseidon > Aphrodite > Hermes > Artemis > Apollo > Ares

And the 3 first ones are much better than the last 3.
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Brad103
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Different views are great! As is discussion of them...

Again, I think they're all pretty equal all things considered, so it's hard to put them in any order. I'll give you my reasoning...

Apollon - Gives you free reign to do whatever you want on your turn without being limited by your dice roll. That's huge! Sure you can use favor tokens but for those times you don't have enough, you can pull out amazing rounds with Apollo. I was able to pick up an offering, move, deliver it, and place a shrine down, all in one turn thanks to him. Granted all of that could have been done with perfect dice rolls, but when you have bad luck, Apollon negates it completely. And it's universal, works for any task you're trying to do, unlike most of the other gods.

Ares - I rate him higher because using him negates the one of the only random chance tasks there is. Late game it's less useful as you likely have more shields and/or favor, but early game he's great to have, and when you use him his usefulness is replaced by hopefully a great equipment card.

Aphrodite - Honestly I dont like her much. She doesnt help you do anything, just prevents you from doing nothing. But having her sitting on her throne gives you a measure of safety. And when you need her ability, you're really glad you have it.

Hermes - As you said, he's useful once. But he is pretty useful anyways. When you pick up one statue, grab another that can be placed in the same location. Two stones with one bird! (because the statues are stone and Hermes' boots have wings...duh)

Artemis - I still find her quite useful. Chances are not all 3 of your islands are going to be discovered when she's available. And if so, there are some VERY useful runed islands you can use to your benefit.

Poseidon - I really want to rate him higher, but the more I look at his ability the weaker I see it being. Movement is the easiest thing to do in this game. With a relatively circular map you can move most of the way across it on one turn. Granted Poseidon can move you there for free.

EDIT: I'll be playing this with (hopefully) 3 others later today, so we'll see how my thoughts on them change with more experience.
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Martin Zeeb
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Some official clarifications on how to use Artemis:

1. Uncover A FACE DOWN Island Tile.
The Island has to be face down. You cannot use the power on an Island Tile that is face up!

2. ... take/receive the corresponding reward" riderects you to page 11 which states:
[...] and receive the corresponding reward:

a) If...
b) If.

So, first, you CANNOT choose which bonus to take.
If it is "your tile" you receive option a. If it is not your tile you receive option b.

That means two options are possible when using Artemis:
You uncover(!) one for your own tiles --> build your Shrine there (no matter where your boat is). THAT is you bonus.
You uncover(!) a "foreign" tile --> take the reward indicated by the Greek letter.

Hope that helps.
Martin, translator of Delphi, for H@llGames
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Robert Crawford
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brito wrote:
building a shrine at distance is much better than simply revealing a tile, nice as the rewards involved could be.


I disagree with this. While I admit I only have 3 plays of experience, the island rewards are strong, and far better than the reward you get for placing a shrine, despite the fact that building a shrine directly works towards the win conditions.[/q]

brito wrote:
And if someone reveals one of my tiles and I have Artemis ready to be used then it could harm me instead of help me in some cases. Other players could even do this on purpose in some situations, adding a cut-throat aspect to the game that didn't seem to exist.


If they uncover your island "on purpose", it's because they get a good reward for doing so, it's not just a spite move. There's only 12 islands available to uncover, so uncovering one before your opponent has a chance to is always a good thing. Whether the one you uncover is yours, theirs, or someone else's. And whether you do it with a normal action or with Artemis.
 
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Steve Duff
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brito wrote:
Hermes would be the most powerful, if it were not for the fact that you will use it only once in the whole game.


Not necessarily, it depends on the board. It's very possible that you could use him a second time to pick up your third colour at one of the two cities that matched your first two delivered, saving you from sailing further.

With the expanded storage, you could even pick up all three on the same turn.
 
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