Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Epic Card Game» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Dark Draft Card Ratings Continued rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
I've Updated my Dark Draft Tier list to include Uprising (+ non-uprising updates): http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/uprising-dark-draft-tier-updat...

I've also begun updating my big article with all of my reasoning behind each cards' spot on my tier list. All tier list ratings for all cards have been added so far, just need to finish writing up my reasoning: http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/epic-card-game-dark-draft-card...
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josiah Fiscus
United States
Pittsburgh (Monroeville)
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for all your work on this. The vast majority we agree on. A few points of discussion:

I think that you overrate discard pile banishment, especially given how much more of it there is now. (Amnesia was much more first-pickable when only the base set existed.) It's still very solid, but I don't think it warrants it's own tier. I can't ever see picking Heinous Feast over Muse, for example.

Five full tiers between Rescue Griffin and Brand Rebel Fighter seems... excessive. (As a side note, there is a typo in the word Griffin on your list).

Your unplayable tier is spot-on, with the exception of Bellowing Minotaur. It can actually do a reasonable Lightning Storm impression when it comes to trying to close out a game. Both Bellowing Minotaur and his big brother Great Horned Lizard are lower on your list than I think they should be. I think Pack Alpha is well worse than both, for example.

I need some explanation of the love for Little Devil. As discussed, you highly value discard pile banishment, yet you rate it even higher than Guilt Demon? Both are airborne blitzers, but Guilt Demon can ambush and also banishes cards at the cost of just 1 less attack and 2 less defense. They aren't ranked far apart, but that's still the biggest head scratcher to me.

Surprise Attack is first-pickable. I would take it over anything on the Always Desirable list. You well know the problems that can occur when you end up with a glut of slow 1-cost champions despite your best efforts. Surprise Attack smooths out that problem. Of course sometimes it is also a huge blowout. At the very least, it replaces itself for free, getting you to whatever your best card is even faster.




3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Little Devil rating will be Tom's playstyle. He's all about staying exactly 1 gold ahead in tempo, he uses LD to bait opp. gold and to accumulate damage without spending his own. The bigger defence is what makes it work, like Dark Knight's unbreakable (tho' harder to block, easier to Spike Trap / Raxxa's Curse etc).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Hebert
msg tools
Tom, what's the meaning of the + and - next to cards on your spreadsheet?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josiah Fiscus
United States
Pittsburgh (Monroeville)
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
++ : The most desirable cards in that tier (not strong enough and/or reliable enough to breach the next tier.)

+ : Generally a bit better and/or more reliable than other cards in the tier

– : Generally a bit weaker and/or less reliable than other cards in the tier

– – : The least desirable cards in that tier (not weak enough and/or unreliable enough to fall into the next tier.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Hebert
msg tools
Thanks, Josiah!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
First 16 uprising cards up
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/first-16-uprising-card-reviews...

@Josiah
Mass Discard Banish
My insistence on Mass-Discard Pile banish does seem to be falling out of favor with a lot of people. Most games do seem to finish before either player decks out. I even picked a Revolt over my first Erratic Research once (in cube draft with human tokens)...I lost both matches because my opponents decked out and I saw no more mass discard banish in the draft.

In general, the effect is so powerful I have a hard time justifying not taking it, just in case I don't see any more. Not worth the risk to me.

Rescue Griffin v Brand
It's possible I value Brand too low, but I do think Rescue Griffin is that powerful (fixed typo, ty). 7 Defense on an airborne champion means that it only dies to Thundarus, Djinn of the Sands, Draka Dragon Tyrant, and Draka’s Enforcer. It can also break Winged Death, Pyrosaur, and Citadel Raven. (It is my biggest fear when I play my Pyrosaur deck). It also blocks Little Devil, Guilt Demon, Dark Knight, etc.

Brand, on the other hand, blocks tokens. It also doesn't survive/can't block any of the cards listed above for Citadel Raven.

Bellowing Minotaur, Great Horned Lizard, Pack Alpha
I was considering moving Bellowing Minotaur and Wolf's call up a tier, since they are blitz threats that can punish an opponent when they spend their gold before me on my turn. But, they are just so weak the turn after you play them. The recall on Bellowing Minotaur can be important, but I ... actually I would take it over some of the cards in the next 2 tiers up in certain situations (even though I've lost every draft I've had to take it).

Great Horned Lizard is another card I was considering moving up, largely because I was considering putting Saren, Night Stalker into a higher tier. GHL is a reasonable card to punish an opponent, it does have ambush too, and it works with Ankylosaurus, but the drop-off of both it and Saren make me want other cards more than both. I would take either if I had no blitz threats in my deck midway through a draft. At best, I would be willing to put them to situationally desirable -. I also seem to have a lower opinion of GHL than a lot of people.

I think Pack Alpha is a very reasonable card. It puts 11/12 worth of stats into play over 3 bodies, and it threatens to make more if not removed. If your opponent removes it, you still at least got 2 wolves out of it for their gold. I've slowly come back from a deficit in a couple games with Pack Alpha because my opponent just couldn't get through my chump blockers.

greylag wrote:
The Little Devil rating will be Tom's playstyle. He's all about staying exactly 1 gold ahead in tempo, he uses LD to bait opp. gold and to accumulate damage without spending his own. The bigger defence is what makes it work, like Dark Knight's unbreakable (tho' harder to block, easier to Spike Trap / Raxxa's Curse etc).


Greylag is exactly correct. Further, the difference between 2 defense and 4 defense is enormous, the amount of cards that can break a 4 defense champion off-turn for free is significantly lower. I am much more concerned about pushing damage through and Little Devil is much more reliable at it than Guilt Demon. In addition, since I value mass discard pile banish so highly, I don't need to worry about Guilt Demon's ability to banish cards as much. The ambush is also fairly irrelevant if I want to use it as a blitzer, but it can be a desperation chump blocker which is not without value.

I have discussed with a few people who also believe that Guilt Demon, Keeper of Secrets, etc. are more valuable because they address the decking out concern while providing greater value than mass-discard banish, but it will take me quite a few more games before I am willing to fully come around to that way of thinking.

Surprise Attack
Most of the time, I would rather have another situationally powerful card than Surprise Attack. It's basically never a bad card, and it can very powerful, but when most of the slow champions I want to play are value cards or blitz champions, I have less incentive to want to Surprise Attack them in. Avenging Angel, for example, I wouldn't want to Surprise Attack in, but maybe Rampaging Wurm.

If I do manage to pick up Kong, Sea Titan, Angel of Death, Time Walker, etc., Surprise Attack does increase in value. Hmm, I could see myself upping it to at most Frequently Desirable, but this is where my tier list gets a bit tricky. Since I would never actively not want Surprise Attack (like I might actively not want Gold Dragon or Angel of Death), it is neither frequently nor situationally desirable, just always acceptable. I also don't want it enough to make it usually desirable or better.


Good points, Bellowing Minotaur, Great Horned Lizard, Saren Night Stalker, and possibly Surprise Attack might shift in my next update. Especially if others agree.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josiah Fiscus
United States
Pittsburgh (Monroeville)
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RiotOfficer wrote:

I have discussed with a few people who also believe that Guilt Demon, Keeper of Secrets, etc. are more valuable because they address the decking out concern while providing greater value than mass-discard banish, but it will take me quite a few more games before I am willing to fully come around to that way of thinking.


I think I'm in this camp also. While banishing the whole pile does make your opponent's recycle abilities much worse, cards like Corpsemonger can get rid of a troublesome Lightning Storm and provide incremental advantage against recycle triggers while also serving a function other than just dicard pile banishment.

There is an element here that is affected by playstyle though, I agree. I've never had a dark draft game go to decking. Not once. And that's because I tend to draft more aggressive cards (see also our difference in valuation of GHL and BM).

And yeah, Kong is basically the best thing you can do with a Surprise Attack. Feels good man.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Second 16 Uprising Cards up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/second-16-uprising-card-review...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Final 16 Uprising cards up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/final-16-uprising-card-reviews...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Minnigh
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Did you make any further changes from when you originally posted it to facebook? I can't tell.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
I don't believe I made any changes after posting it on facebook for the Final 16 uprising cards. I might not have finished updating the main article with the new reviews at that point though.

Another 16 base set re-reviews up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/16-base-set-cards-122816/
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Another 16 base set re-reviews up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/16-base-set-cards-1317/
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Another 16 base set re-reviews up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/16-base-set-cards-1417/
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Another 16 base set re-reviews up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/16-base-set-cards-1517/
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Another 17 base set re-reviews up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/17-base-set-cards-11017/
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Minnigh
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like it when other people play TriHorror. That is a wonderful Final Task Target and the face your opponent gets when you pull it off is priceless. 12/12 blitzing breakthrough demon that when he breaks he gives me 3 demon tokens. Beautiful stuff!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josiah Fiscus
United States
Pittsburgh (Monroeville)
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gamjuven wrote:
I like it when other people play TriHorror. That is a wonderful Final Task Target and the face your opponent gets when you pull it off is priceless. 12/12 blitzing breakthrough demon that when he breaks he gives me 3 demon tokens. Beautiful stuff!


I mean... you can do that to your OWN Trihorror too...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Minnigh
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
True, but it's more satisfying to take your opponent's, lol
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Doing it on your opponent's also means you didn't have to spend a gold to put a non-blitzing one into play too (or discard one).

Finished re-rating the base game cards and started tyrants. Only 3 more sets of 16 (or less) left!
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/9-base-set8-tyrants-cards-1121...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Sorenson

St. Paul
Minnesota
msg tools
mbmb
Another 16 Tyrants re-reviews up:
http://www.tomsepicgaming.com/16-tyrants-cards-11817/

I also go into more detail about why I love mass discard pile banish cards in limited formats while providing an emerging counter argument.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.