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Subject: When are units caused to be fatigued rss

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Isaac Citrom
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I am a bit confused about just when a unit is fatigued and when it is not. I extracted the list below from combining the attack results rules on pages 28-29 of the rulebook.

Do I have the following right?

Units are caused to be fatigued as such:

1. When a unit is the object of an action, except for the prepare opfire action, the unit is fatigued.

2a. An infantry unit that suffers a successful suppressive attack while moving (during its activation) by an enemy unit in opfire mode, the active infantry unit is fatigued.

2b. An active (moving) infantry unit that suffers casualties from a normal attack by a unit in opfire mode is not fatigued.

3. Likewise, a vehicle that suffers a successful attack while moving (during its activation) by an enemy unit in opfire mode, the active vehicle is fatigued (heavy vehicle exception noted).

4a. Infantry only that are in opfire mode (not an active unit) and suffer a successful suppressive attack are fatigued.

4b. Both infantry and vehicles in opfire mode that suffer a successful normal attack are not fatigued.

5. Any unit that attacks while in opfire mode is fatigued (machinegun exception noted).

6. Where both the active unit and the target are not in opfire mode, any target unit that suffers any kind of hit is not fatigued.

It seems as if infantry in opfire mode have an additional risk of becoming fatigued in addition to pinned or disrupted if the infantry unit is in opfire mode. A disrupted infantry unit cannot do anything anyway, so being fatigued is of no consequence. A pinned infantry unit could have made a concentrated attack if there were an officer present. But, since the unit is also fatigued, this option is out. So, in effect, if one has an infantry unit in opfire mode and it is suppressed, the effective reult is always disruption.

So, in short, taking any kind of hit does not fatigue a unit unless the hit came from a unit in opfire mode.

Do I have this down correctly? I tried making a chart but this seems to be a cross product between (a) whether the firer is in opfire mode or not, (b) whether the target is in opfire mode or not, (c) whether the attack is normal or suppressive. If someone smarter can make a chart out of this, I sure would like to see it. I think it would be handy.

 
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Mike zebrowski
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7. The losers in an Assault are fatigued.
 
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David desJardins
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isaacc wrote:
It seems as if infantry in opfire mode have an additional risk of becoming fatigued in addition to pinned or disrupted if the infantry unit is in opfire mode. A disrupted infantry unit cannot do anything anyway, so being fatigued is of no consequence. A pinned infantry unit could have made a concentrated attack if there were an officer present. But, since the unit is also fatigued, this option is out. So, in effect, if one has an infantry unit in opfire mode and it is suppressed, the effective reult is always disruption.


Huh? The rules say that units that are in op-fire mode which become pinned also become fatigued. This is basically a no-op, because the pinned unit couldn't take an op-fire shot anyway. (With an officer, it could use concentrated fire, but being in op-fire mode means that the option to use concentrated fire is already gone.) I think it's just in the rules as a bookkeeping provision so you don't accidentally try to take op-fire with that unit.

Why you say the effective result of a pin is the same as disruption, I have no idea. Pinning is definitely not disruption. A disrupted unit would become pinned, at the end of the turn. But a pinned unit loses its pinned status, at the end of the turn. And a second pin result on the disrupted unit would kill it. But a second pin result on a pinned unit only disrupts it. The strength vs assault of pinned units is also different than disrupted units. There are probably other differences I can't think of right now.
 
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David desJardins
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isaacc wrote:
If someone smarter can make a chart out of this, I sure would like to see it.


Units that complete an action become fatigued. (And, as Mike points out, units that lose an Assault, or that support an Assault, become fatigued.) Everything else is just special cases of that:

1. Units in op-fire mode that become pinned or disrupted can no longer perform the op-fire action, so they become fatigued.

2. Moving units that become pinned or disrupted can no longer perform the movement action, so they become fatigued.

3. Units in op-fire mode that conduct opportunity fire (except machine guns) can no longer perform the op-fire action, so they become fatigued.
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Isaac Citrom
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DaviddesJ wrote:
isaacc wrote:
It seems as if infantry in opfire mode have an additional risk of becoming fatigued in addition to pinned or disrupted if the infantry unit is in opfire mode. A disrupted infantry unit cannot do anything anyway, so being fatigued is of no consequence. A pinned infantry unit could have made a concentrated attack if there were an officer present. But, since the unit is also fatigued, this option is out. So, in effect, if one has an infantry unit in opfire mode and it is suppressed, the effective reult is always disruption.


Huh? The rules say that units that are in op-fire mode which become pinned also become fatigued. This is basically a no-op, because the pinned unit couldn't take an op-fire shot anyway. (With an officer, it could use concentrated fire, but being in op-fire mode means that the option to use concentrated fire is already gone.) I think it's just in the rules as a bookkeeping provision so you don't accidentally try to take op-fire with that unit.

Why you say the effective result of a pin is the same as disruption, I have no idea. Pinning is definitely not disruption. A disrupted unit would become pinned, at the end of the turn. But a pinned unit loses its pinned status, at the end of the turn. And a second pin result on the disrupted unit would kill it. But a second pin result on a pinned unit only disrupts it. The strength vs assault of pinned units is also different than disrupted units. There are probably other differences I can't think of right now.


Gotcha.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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DaviddesJ wrote:
isaacc wrote:
If someone smarter can make a chart out of this, I sure would like to see it.


Units that complete an action become fatigued. (And, as Mike points out, units that lose an Assault, or that support an Assault, become fatigued.) Everything else is just special cases of that:

1. Units in op-fire mode that become pinned or disrupted can no longer perform the op-fire action, so they become fatigued.

2. Moving units that become pinned or disrupted can no longer perform the movement action, so they become fatigued.

3. Units in op-fire mode that conduct opportunity fire (except machine guns) can no longer perform the op-fire action, so they become fatigued.


Yes, but there's more to it. Your 1-2-3 I do not believe covers it all. For example, a moving unit that takes casualties (from a normal attack by an opfire mode firer) is not fatigued. I found this counter-intuitive. Taking suppressive hits fatigues a moving unit. Taking 75% casualties, for example, does not fatigue a unit. Amother example is, an infantry unit in opfire mode that takes a suppressive hit is fatigued. The same does not apply to an infantry unit in opfire mode nor a vehicle in opfire mode that takes a normal hit.

I see how your 1-2-3 are correct. And, perhaps it's just me, but I wanted to verify the whole story because it was not immediately evident to me. During my first game, intuitively, I fatigued any unit that took any kind of a hit. Clearly that is incorrect.

The way you explain it makes it easier to remember. That is, there is a special relationship between opfire mode and pinning and disruption.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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DaviddesJ wrote:
isaacc wrote:
It seems as if infantry in opfire mode have an additional risk of becoming fatigued in addition to pinned or disrupted if the infantry unit is in opfire mode. A disrupted infantry unit cannot do anything anyway, so being fatigued is of no consequence. A pinned infantry unit could have made a concentrated attack if there were an officer present. But, since the unit is also fatigued, this option is out. So, in effect, if one has an infantry unit in opfire mode and it is suppressed, the effective reult is always disruption.


Huh? The rules say that units that are in op-fire mode which become pinned also become fatigued. This is basically a no-op, because the pinned unit couldn't take an op-fire shot anyway. (With an officer, it could use concentrated fire, but being in op-fire mode means that the option to use concentrated fire is already gone.) I think it's just in the rules as a bookkeeping provision so you don't accidentally try to take op-fire with that unit.

Why you say the effective result of a pin is the same as disruption, I have no idea. Pinning is definitely not disruption. A disrupted unit would become pinned, at the end of the turn. But a pinned unit loses its pinned status, at the end of the turn. And a second pin result on the disrupted unit would kill it. But a second pin result on a pinned unit only disrupts it. The strength vs assault of pinned units is also different than disrupted units. There are probably other differences I can't think of right now.


So, if I understand correctly, an officer's Rally ability does not apply simply to pinned units. It applies to pinned units as part of your action turn in terms of activating the pinned infantry unit for a concentrated attack action. The Rally ability does not extend to a pinned infantry unit in opfire mode. This connects up with other rules such that if the infantry unit was pinned before it can not be put into opfire mode anyway. Secondly, if the infantry unit was in opfire mode first and then got pinned, it still cannot benefit from the officer's Rally ability because it was fatigued. And, that was my main point; that is, if the infantry unit had not been put into opfire mode, and got pinned, it still would be eligible for that half firepower concentrated attack.

In any case, the rules are geling in my mind. Thanks.
 
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David desJardins
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isaacc wrote:
Your 1-2-3 I do not believe covers it all. For example, a moving unit that takes casualties (from a normal attack by an opfire mode firer) is not fatigued.


It's also not eliminated, and not teleported to the other side of the board, and not replaced with space aliens. I think it just gets more confusing if you try to list all of the things that don't happen.

Quote:
Amother example is, an infantry unit in opfire mode that takes a suppressive hit is fatigued. The same does not apply to an infantry unit in opfire mode nor a vehicle in opfire mode that takes a normal hit.


Pinned units can't conduct opportunity fire, while non-pinned units can. So, if you have a unit in op-fire mode, which becomes pinned, then you should fatigue it, as a visible indicator that it can no longer do anything. If the same unit takes a casualty, this has no effect on its ability to conduct op fire.
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David desJardins
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isaacc wrote:
The Rally ability does not extend to a pinned infantry unit in opfire mode.


Certainly that's true.

The Rally ability says: "A fresh, but pinned, squad in the same hex as an officer may be activated with a Concentrated Attack action. The squad will fire at half firepower."

So there's nothing there that would allow a pinned squad to conduct opportunity fire. Or that would allow a squad which has been activated for op-fire (so is no longer fresh) to conduct a new, different action.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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David;

If I put the teleportation and space alien options to the back of mind for a moment, I was thinking that if an officer allows a pinned unit to fire when normally it would not be able to, that the same "ability" would allow a pinned opfire mode unit to fire as well when normally it would not be able to.

Even so, with your help, I understand the actual rule that this is not the case.
 
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Court
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DaviddesJ wrote:


It's also not eliminated, and not teleported to the other side of the board, and not replaced with space aliens. I think it just gets more confusing if you try to list all of the things that don't happen.


I think this is the best way to simplify the rules - by stating those cases and only those cases where x proves true. In this case, anything else/other scenario can be assumed to not cause fatigue.
 
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Richard R.
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"4b. Both infantry and vehicles in opfire mode that suffer a successful normal attack are not fatigued."

I thought vehicles that suffered any damage while in OpFire were fatigued?

According to the errata list..

"A unit is fatigued when:
1) it completes its action.
2) it supports another unit in combined fire or an assault.
3) it performs an op fire attack (except when using only machine guns).
4) it becomes pinned or disrupted during its action.
5) it becomes pinned or disrupted whilst in op fire mode.
6) it is a vehicle and takes damage during its activation or whilst in op fire mode (except for light damage on tanks due to op fire)."

 
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David desJardins
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ShapedFuture wrote:
I thought vehicles that suffered any damage while in OpFire were fatigued?


Nope. There's no such rule.
 
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Richard R.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
ShapedFuture wrote:
I thought vehicles that suffered any damage while in OpFire were fatigued?


Nope. There's no such rule.


So the only way to hose a tank in OpFire is to completely destroy it? Not just peg it with a single hit like I thought..
 
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Timothy Phelps
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DaviddesJ wrote:
ShapedFuture wrote:
I thought vehicles that suffered any damage while in OpFire were fatigued?


Nope. There's no such rule.


Yep. There is.

p. 32
If the Op Fire attacker decides to make a suppressive attack
against an active unit, and manages to either pin or disrupt an
active squad or damage an active vehicle, the active unit is
immediately fatigued.

Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy Op Fire does
not cause a heavy vehicle to become fatigued.
 
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Timothy Phelps
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I think it's just in the rules as a bookkeeping provision so you don't accidentally try to take op-fire with that unit.


No, it's more than just a bookkeeping provision. If the unit was not fatiqued, then on a subsequent action turn the player could use a strategy card to remove the pinned/disrupted marker and be able to conduct OpFire again with the unit during the current round. There are at least two cards I know of that allow this. I believe they are named "Rally Cry" and "Heroic Leadership".
 
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David desJardins
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Asyncritus wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
ShapedFuture wrote:
I thought vehicles that suffered any damage while in OpFire were fatigued?


Nope. There's no such rule.


Yep. There is.

p. 32
If the Op Fire attacker decides to make a suppressive attack
against an active unit, and manages to either pin or disrupt an
active squad or damage an active vehicle, the active unit is
immediately fatigued.

Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy Op Fire does
not cause a heavy vehicle to become fatigued.


This doesn't have anything to do with the topic, which is vehicles that take damage while in Op Fire mode. Vehicles (or other units) in Op Fire mode can't possibly take damage from Op Fire attackers, because the former units are not moving.

Furthermore, it's not possible for a suppressive attack to damage a vehicle (or affect it at all).
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