Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Santorini» Forums » Rules

Subject: Adonis rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Verno Whitney
United States
Winfield
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So I have Adonis and activate his hero power. Am I correct in my understanding that if my opponent wins the game that turn they won't have to worry about where their chosen builder ends up?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Van Biesbrouck
Canada
St Catharines
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You can't use winning the game as a way to avoid 'if possible' requirements. Even if winning the game meant that your turn didn't end, you would have to take some alternate move that did leave the worker next to Adonis at the end of a turn. However, in defence of Adonis' opponents, I suggest the current player's turn ends when someone wins but end of turn effects are skipped (otherwise the opponent wouldn't be able to move next to Adonis' worker if it ended the game).

This was a good question in that an earlier version of Aphrodite had convolutions about 'even winning turns' after Santorini rules changed so that you don't have to take a complete turn when you win. Instantly winning made Limos and an earlier but defective wording of Hera more reasonable.

I hope that you find Adonis fun. The published power is one of three that I suggested when powers were shuffled around, leaving Adonis with art but no heroic power.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Verno Whitney
United States
Winfield
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mlvanbie wrote:
You can't use winning the game as a way to avoid 'if possible' requirements. Even if winning the game meant that your turn didn't end, you would have to take some alternate move that did leave the worker next to Adonis at the end of a turn.


Okay, so Adonis's power does still matter and can't be avoided that way. Thanks.

mlvanbie wrote:
However, in defence of Adonis' opponents, I suggest the current player's turn ends when someone wins but end of turn effects are skipped (otherwise the opponent wouldn't be able to move next to Adonis' worker if it ended the game).


...and now you lost me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Saxberg
Canada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Michael knows this game inside out (and has a disturbing history of proving me wrong when we disagree) but I think I may have finally caught him, and it's because the wording is probably not the way we should have made it on Adonis.

Page 1 of the rulebook states you win *instantly* when you move up to level 3. The example he used of Aphrodite is worded so that the opponent's Move must be to a space adjacent to one of your workers, so it applies during the Move step, thus preventing an illegal move-to-win situation.

We probably should have used the same wording on Adonis, but since we did not, Adonis checks for opponent's legal positioning at the end of the turn, by which point the game is already over, meaning you *can* win by a move that disobeys his lure, which is not how he was intended to work.

I'm going to make a note of this for future rulebook corrections, and check in with Gord... if Gord agrees (as I do) that Michael's version is how it is supposed to be, this will become official errata.

(Adonis is fun. It's too bad we weren't able to make him a regular God instead of a Hero.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon R
United Kingdom
West Midlands
flag msg tools
I am pretty sure that Adonis' power was meant to be able to be used to stop players winning (obviously just the once, with him being a hero).

"If possible, that Worker must be neighboring one of your Workers at the end of their next turn."

I think it was worded as it is because if you referred to "Move" then they could just move their other Worker and nullify your intention.
And then you would have to remember that the chosen Worker still has to move next to you (if possible) when they finally do move, and it all gets a bit confusing.

Perhaps you could just include some brackets at the end, so:

"If possible, that Worker must be neighboring one of your Workers at the end of their next turn (including on a winning turn)."

Although that sort of bracket was previously removed from other powers for some reason, so it may not be a good idea. Or perhaps it was just that better wordings were arrived at and brackets were no longer needed, in which case it might be a good idea.

Michael will probably be able to remember the reasons for their removal if it was due to some problem.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Saxberg
Canada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
(For the observers, both Michael and Simon are on the rulebook team. This is being discussed right now via email between Michael, Simon, and Dr. Hamilton, and one of us will report back.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Van Biesbrouck
Canada
St Catharines
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For the moment, please play Adonis as I described above -- if it is possible to move next to an Adonis worker, you must do so. This can prevent you from making a winning move to a space not next to Adonis, but taking a winning move next to Adonis is okay. That's how he is intended to play and should be the most fun.

Mostly we are making sure that everything around winning is consistent after we look at a few issues. Given the need for care, checking that changes/clarifications don't upset power balances and Christmas holidays, it will be a bit before there is a final conclusion. The practical issues in this exercise are pretty obscure and might just be a clarification of what it means to win instantly.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon R
United Kingdom
West Midlands
flag msg tools
mlvanbie wrote:
For the moment, please play Adonis as I described above -- if it is possible to move next to an Adonis worker, you must do so. This can prevent you from making a winning move to a space not next to Adonis, but taking a winning move next to Adonis is okay. That's how he is intended to play and should be the most fun.


This is what I meant, but perhaps explained better.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Francis Rivest
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Any updates on the official ruling for this?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Saxberg
Canada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Final wording will have to wait for a future update. But for now, the thread is on track. If you activate Adonis' power, your opponent can't get out of obeying it by winning the game and declaring it over before any consequences happen - they will have made an illegal move if they do so, and lost the game instead. Final wording will reflect this.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Raph Moimoi
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mind_ranger wrote:
Final wording will have to wait for a future update. But for now, the thread is on track. If you activate Adonis' power, your opponent can't get out of obeying it by winning the game and declaring it over before any consequences happen - they will have made an illegal move if they do so, and lost the game instead. Final wording will reflect this.


If I understand correctly, we can say the basic winning condition is obtained only after you made all your moves, so you cannot win if you have to continue to move and go down the 3rd level even if you managed to go up to it this turn. Is that right ?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Van Biesbrouck
Canada
St Catharines
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Winning ends your turn part way through, but you are still required to meet obligations such as Aphrodite's 'last move' and Adonis.

There is a draft of fine points about what happens when turns end early. I believe it was inspired by this thread, so it is really late.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Clarke
United Kingdom
Nantwich
Cheshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the wording of both Aphrodite and Adonis are just fine.

Suggest addition to p.2, Using God Powers: "YOU CANNOT WIN the game instantly if you are under the influence of an opponent's God Power. You must satisfy conditions imposed by an opponent's God Power at the end of every turn, even a turn in which you would otherwise win, or else you lose the game."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J. "Ponder" Rummy
United States
Tulsa
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
badge
Reading furnishes the mind only with materials of knowledge; it is thinking that makes what we read ours. John Locke
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
i think "cannot win if you are under the influence of an opponents' god/hero power" needlessly complicates the simple rules as they stand. how do you win the game? win by moving a worker UP to legally end movement on the THIRD level on YOUR turn. moves must obviously be legal, and the hero/god power stipulates what is legal. Aphrodite/Adonis's powers do not force your worker's movement and occurs on your turn. what are we clarifying?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.