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Terra Mystica» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cultists cult advance - is it a must? rss

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Marcin Matyjewicz-Maciejewicz
Poland
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This may seem strange (and obvious for some) but are cultists forced to advance on cult track after someone leeches power from their build action, or can they decline it (gaining simply nothing)?
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Alban Thomas
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Daeral wrote:
This may seem strange (and obvious for some) but are cultists forced to advance on cult track after someone leeches power from their build action, or can they decline it (gaining simply nothing)?
Given how it is written in the rules, I don't think they have a choice.
But on the other hand I cannot see a case where it would be a better move not to advance on a cult when you have the opportunity.

By the way, declining the cult step in favor of the +1PW (that you get when no opponent leeches since the official update) is not authorized either.

All in all, I don't really get your question. This might hide a misunderstanding. Can you elaborate a situation where you would like to decline a cult advance and rather get nothing instead ?
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LudoH LudoH
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Indeed, I have never seen such a situation; the only case I could imagine would be to avoid passing a barrier that gives you power that you could not take (in order to pass the treshold later) ... but knowing you can always use pw->coin before your move, it sounds a pretty theoretical situation ...

except if the reason is related to kingmaking ...
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Loon
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I can come up with a very contrived and elaborate situation where it makes sense:

Assume it's round 6, and that the cultists are finished on three cult tracks (either at 10 or at 9 when someone else has 10.) The air track has the cultists tied with opponents A and B at the 9 spot, while opponent C is at 7. Opponents A and B have passed already. Opponent C will have two viable choices for his final action:
(i) upgrading to a TE and claiming FAV4
(ii) building a D on a hex that the cultists need to finish a town, with FAV11, and catching up to the cultists' network
(Note for the detail-oriented folks: I'll be ignoring resource costs and a couple other factors in the projected scores, but we could easily say that building the D requires a hard dig, and that opponent C's projected score is a bit higher to adjust.)

Current projected scores:
Opponent A: 147 (including 4 from the air track)
Opponent B: 146 (including 4 from the air track)
Cultists: 140 (including 4 from the air track)
Opponent C: 138

If cultists advance air to 10, and option (i):
Cultists: 155 (8 from air, +11 from TW8)
Opponent A: 145 (2 from air)
Opponent B: 144 (2 from air)
Opponent C: 140 (2 from air)

If cultists advance air to 10, and option (ii):
Opponent A: 146 (3 from air)
Opponent B: 145 (3 from air)
Opponent C: 143 (2 from FAV11, +3 from network)
Cultists: 141 (8 from air, -3 from network)

If cultists DO NOT advance air to 10, and option (i):
Cultists: 149 (2 from air, +11 from TW8)
Opponent C: 146 (8 from air)
Opponent A: 145 (2 from air)
Opponent B: 144 (2 from air)

If cultists DO NOT advance air to 10, and option (ii):
Opponent A: 147 (4 from air)
Opponent B: 146 (4 from air)
Opponent C: 143 (2 from FAV11, +3 from network)
Cultists: 137 (4 from air, -3 from network)

Clearly, if cultists DO advance to 10, then a self-serving Opponent C will take option (ii) and the cultists end up in last place. If not, then Opponent C will take option (i) to finish 2nd behind the cultists.

Though if the cult step is mandatory, this is all irrelevant. I have always assumed it *is* mandatory, but I don't have proof.
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Matthias Reitberger
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A situation where Cultists only could advance to Step 10 of a not contested cult and want to get the power later on is possible.

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Alban Thomas
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Alright, I wonder how likely this type of situation is, but OK.
Anyway, the rules are quite clear to me.

Last page of Rulebook wrote:
Ability: Whenever at least one of your opponents decides to take Power due to your building activity, advance 1 space on a Cult track of your choice.
Should it be a choice, a "you may advance 1 space" would have been specified.
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Marcin Matyjewicz-Maciejewicz
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Yup, the situation happened and was like this:
Cultists are 10/9/10/9 on cults, have 3 keys and 2water fav.
The opponent can get to 10 on one of the available cults, but in two moves (eg. with two priests).
The cultists want to wait and see which cult will opponent try to achieve, because he can achieve only one of them (e.g. has only two priests).
The moment the opponent will send first priest to a cult, cultists will block the 10 spot of this cult. Hence he would like not to do it earlier, because then the opponent will easily get the other 10-spot.

Essentialy the rules sound like you have to advance, still it's always better to listen to the oppinion of the community.
Thanks for all your contributions!
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Brian Baier
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Daeral wrote:
... wait and see which cult will opponent try to achieve, because he can achieve only one of them (e.g. has only two priests).
The moment the opponent will send first priest to a cult, cultists will block the 10 spot of this cult. Hence he would like not to do it earlier, because then the opponent will easily get the other 10-spot.


Ah, so you didn't want to reveal your intentions. Sounds like a tight game.
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Juho Snellman
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Daeral wrote:
Yup, the situation happened and was like this:
Cultists are 10/9/10/9 on cults, have 3 keys and 2water fav.

That's actually a slightly different question. I agree that the Cultists take the cult step. But I'd argue that in this case they could just waste it on fire or earth; it doesn't need to be used on a cult where they can actually advance higher.
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Marcin Matyjewicz-Maciejewicz
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Thank you for this comment!

This way it also clarifies the other question that came up recently: "what happens if cultists have nowhere to advance?" - you simply take the cult step somewhere but don't advance, sort of 'wasting' it.
 
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Loon
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jsnell wrote:
Daeral wrote:
Yup, the situation happened and was like this:
Cultists are 10/9/10/9 on cults, have 3 keys and 2water fav.

That's actually a slightly different question. I agree that the Cultists take the cult step. But I'd argue that in this case they could just waste it on fire or earth; it doesn't need to be used on a cult where they can actually advance higher.


Oh, that's interesting. Maybe we could get an official ruling? Either resolution makes sense to me.
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