Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » General

Subject: Savior Nerf rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Sintec
msg tools
Poots has mentioned several times in this campaign that saviors were going to be getting nerfed. Last night in the comments he was a bit more explicit about what this might mean in practice:

poots wrote:
Savior Nerf: Right now their power scales too quickly, is too useful and they live for too long. They are going to be downgraded more to feel like a survivor +, each with an ability that on use, ages them. For example, a Red survivor can make a miss an automatic hit by at the cost of 1 age level. Because of how much this sucks, compared to their original incarnation. Each Savior can access a secret fighting art, its use using the remainder of their lifetime. But it will take a little bit of work to learn / gain each of those arts. This puts them more in line with the bonus they were meant to be, instead of a core game strategy as I have seen many people use.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mon...

Having not played the game yet (in for the base game in the Current KS) I'm wondering how big of a deal this change is. What are the current savior rules? Is this going to be a big change in how they're used?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lonny x
United States
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
This is a pretty significant change. Right now Saviors age three times for each completed showdown. Adam used a red savior in his example. For each red affinity the red savior has they get an automatic hit. It's a pretty big nerf. If you assume that a red savior with one affinity attacks 6 times that's 6 automatic hits. After the nerf you would need to age 6 times to get 6 auto hits. Hopefully that makes sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Ehlers
United States
Cleveland
Ohio
flag msg tools
I love you!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's a big deal. Right now saviors essentially age 3x faster than regular survivors and there are ways to get around that. Otherwise their abilities just work. They get a bunch of really fantastic buffs to stats. For example, a properly buffed green savior can only be hit on like a 1 or 2. They then carry around a shield to cancel those few hits that make it through and their practically an unstopable meat shield to stand in front of the monster while everyone else wails on it from behind.

It sounds like from this post that instead of their aging tied to completing hunts, like everyone else, it'll be tied to them actually using their abilities. So the green guy could suck down a couple huge attacks, but that would be it. Much more of a one-time back up plan than a strategy you hang your game on.

Another, personal example, in my first campaign I had a blue savior (who buffs luck) build that critical hit on like a 4+. Not only does that do damage if the monster can be crit without comparing strength, but it also gets you bonus reward and cripples the monster. I would manipulate the deck and he would go in and scoop up monster rewards. I would often get more rewards than there were card in the game, essentially leaving the fight with the maximum possible loot you could get.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drake Coker
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
This is my tank for Combat Commander
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don't saviors age 4 times per hunt and age 4 times faster? If not, I've been playing them wrong. (The rules say they gain 3 additional XP after a hunt, which I've been adding to the one they get normally).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Sintec
msg tools
Wow yeah that's a big nerf. Makes them less powerful and with much less longevity. I can see how that's going to make them less the focus of the settlements strategy and more of a backup plan when things are really tough.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G H

California
msg tools
Olvenskol wrote:
Don't saviors age 4 times per hunt and age 4 times faster? If not, I've been playing them wrong. (The rules say they gain 3 additional XP after a hunt, which I've been adding to the one they get normally).


This is the way I've been playing it. According to the rules it should be 1 Hunt XP + 3 for a total of 4 Hunt XP at the end of the showdown.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig Welter
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Do they really need this so bad? You can only use a savior for 4 fights, then they're gone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sithrak - The god who hates you unconditionally
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
albinosquirrel wrote:
Do they really need this so bad? You can only use a savior for 4 fights, then they're gone.


There are ways to prevent XP increases, such as White Secret Agelessness, that allow you to boost a savior to lucky elder and then keep them around indefinitely by never allowing them to get to retirement age.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Olli T
Finland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ocSherlock wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:
Don't saviors age 4 times per hunt and age 4 times faster? If not, I've been playing them wrong. (The rules say they gain 3 additional XP after a hunt, which I've been adding to the one they get normally).


This is the way I've been playing it. According to the rules it should be 1 Hunt XP + 3 for a total of 4 Hunt XP at the end of the showdown.


That's the way it is. So normally they can go out for three hunts, and the fourth will be their final one.

I've been wondering how the hell people has played this game through in just 60 hours? Maybe it has something to do with the right use of saviors? Or do people play this game wrong so it becames easier than it should be?

I have played about 300h in different campaigns and never even seen the late game. Who are doing it wrong?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Outlaw
United Kingdom
Devizes
Wiltshire
flag msg tools
badge
The Wing Warrior - learn more at www.facebook.com/thelegendriders
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Olvenskol wrote:
Don't saviors age 4 times per hunt and age 4 times faster? If not, I've been playing them wrong. (The rules say they gain 3 additional XP after a hunt, which I've been adding to the one they get normally).


I always give them 4 XP because the rules state they get 3 "additional" XP.

I don't think saviours need to be weaker (or else they're not really saviours), just a bit rarer. I wonder if a lot of people use them as a focus of their strategies because they never pick survival of the fittest, and therefore they end up with more saviours over the course of a campaign? The new survival of the fittest rules might make saviours less of a focus anyway.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Wirtz
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I dunno. My group rarely makes use of saviors and doesn't have any trouble with the game.

Re: the change, huh. Interesting difference. I don't really like that style of spending mechanic, but if it makes the game better, eh, like I just said, my group doesn't use them all that much
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sithrak - The god who hates you unconditionally
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HoboWithAShotgun wrote:

I have played about 300h in different campaigns and never even seen the late game. Who are doing it wrong?


Some of it is luck, some of it is just how quickly you catch on to AI/HL deck manipulation, and some is whether people make smart choices or choices they think are "funny" or "thematic" (because pointless suicide is always thematic).

I was in an online game once where a guy deliberately made every idiotic choice possible and encouraged others to do the same (blew himself up in an event for a shot at a useless reward, then talked another player into killing himself in another event), which predictably led to disastrous results. If you play like that, yeah, you're only going to see the endgame if you're ridiculously lucky. If you make sensible moves though, you should make it at some point.

That being said, 60 hours for your first watcher encounter is pretty damn fast, but 300 hours is pretty damn slow.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drake Coker
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
This is my tank for Combat Commander
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
albinosquirrel wrote:
Do they really need this so bad? You can only use a savior for 4 fights, then they're gone.


Mine always die by Age II (because Things Happen(tm)), so I'm not sure. The logical thing would be to age them 2-3 times and then just hold them back until a key fight or the finale. As a plan, you can probably field 4 aged saviors for The Watcher as one way to game the end.

The nerf seems pretty big, but I'm holding back on an opinion until it is finalized and spelled out. Since mine always die (Things Happen(tm)), I've not really built around them before.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G H

California
msg tools
HoboWithAShotgun wrote:
ocSherlock wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:
Don't saviors age 4 times per hunt and age 4 times faster? If not, I've been playing them wrong. (The rules say they gain 3 additional XP after a hunt, which I've been adding to the one they get normally).


This is the way I've been playing it. According to the rules it should be 1 Hunt XP + 3 for a total of 4 Hunt XP at the end of the showdown.


That's the way it is. So normally they can go out for three hunts, and the fourth will be their final one.

I've been wondering how the hell people has played this game through in just 60 hours? Maybe it has something to do with the right use of saviors? Or do people play this game wrong so it becames easier than it should be?

I have played about 300h in different campaigns and never even seen the late game. Who are doing it wrong?


Seems like you are playing it right. I abused saviors to beat the campaign. Green Saviors make way too OP tanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Wirtz
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, when we get them, we usually age them twice, shove them under the Nemesis bus, then, if they live, do it again.

Savior quality of life is pretty bad around these parts.

We usually have better survivors than a savior for the end game, so they're just for the midgame things where we want pretty good survivors but don't want to risk our favorites.

My group's never tried gaming the understanding thing, either, though.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drake Coker
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
This is my tank for Combat Commander
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's my only concern about the nerf: over-correction.

Survival of the Fittest needs buffing: check

Saviors need nerfing: check

Protect the Young's main advantages: healthy population size and several likely saviors during the campaign.

If Adam (indirectly) nerfs Protect the Young by nerfing saviors, and he also hugely buffs Survival of the Fittest, will Protect the Young hold up as a solid choice? Ideally, PtY and SotF are competitive with each other. In 1.31 they are not, but will they switch roles in 1.5 to the point that people only play PtY for variety? I hope not.


Or, to put things another way... lots of changes coming and a huge set of commitments from the Kickstarter. I hope there's time and attention spent on solid playtesting the changes.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Wirtz
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Huh. Hadn't really considered that angle. Yeah, it definitely does stray towards that common trap of overcompensating on power.

The SOTF on its own seemed like more than enough to thoroughly consider the options, and this might push that further.

Having a ton of people does allow for endeavor-heavy settlements, but not a ton else, and frankly with drums not curing disorders any more, I'm not sure how likely we'd be to need that many (usually my group spends leftovers to tune our survivors).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Henry Akeley
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
malkaven wrote:
This is a pretty significant change. Right now Saviors age three times for each completed showdown. Adam used a red savior in his example. For each red affinity the red savior has they get an automatic hit. It's a pretty big nerf. If you assume that a red savior with one affinity attacks 6 times that's 6 automatic hits. After the nerf you would need to age 6 times to get 6 auto hits. Hopefully that makes sense.


Slight adjustment to your example; the savior would need to have 6 red affinities for 6 auto-hits. Here you state one red affinity nets you 6 auto-hits which is incorrect.

Just want to point that out for any newbies reading this forum who might get confused.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Henry Akeley
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Olvenskol wrote:
Here's my only concern about the nerf: over-correction.

Survival of the Fittest needs buffing: check

Saviors need nerfing: check

Protect the Young's main advantages: healthy population size and several likely saviors during the campaign.

If Adam (indirectly) nerfs Protect the Young by nerfing saviors, and he also hugely buffs Survival of the Fittest, will Protect the Young hold up as a solid choice? Ideally, PtY and SotF are competitive with each other. In 1.31 they are not, but will they switch roles in 1.5 to the point that people only play PtY for variety? I hope not.


Or, to put things another way... lots of changes coming and a huge set of commitments from the Kickstarter. I hope there's time and attention spent on solid playtesting the changes.


I thought of that as well. However I think this is needed to keep SotF competitive with PtY. If you didn't and kept saviors as is I think PtY would still edge out SotF.

Secondly I think its better because it keeps the difficulty level of the game pretty static. I'll admit I'm getting a little nervous the game is becoming too easy with things like: SotF's huge buff, Butcher getting a crit location, and monsters dropping a lot more resources.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G H

California
msg tools
Epidemius wrote:
malkaven wrote:
This is a pretty significant change. Right now Saviors age three times for each completed showdown. Adam used a red savior in his example. For each red affinity the red savior has they get an automatic hit. It's a pretty big nerf. If you assume that a red savior with one affinity attacks 6 times that's 6 automatic hits. After the nerf you would need to age 6 times to get 6 auto hits. Hopefully that makes sense.


Slight adjustment to your example; the savior would need to have 6 red affinities for 6 auto-hits. Here you state one red affinity nets you 6 auto-hits which is incorrect.

Just want to point that out for any newbies reading this forum who might get confused.


I could be wrong, but I think he's trying to say 1 red affinity would get you 6 auto hits across 6 separate attacks which would be correct. Not that it would get you 6 auto hits in one attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TJ
United States
Burbank
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Remember that the Intimacy table is still pretty harsh for Survival of the Fittest, unless that also gets changed:

51% chance the mother and baby die (compared to 9% for Protect the Young)
19% chance the father dies (compared to 1% for PtY)
4% of twins without Hovel, 3% with (compared to 28%/9% with PtY)
1% chance of savior with Hovel (compared to 19% with PtY)

With Survival of the Fittest, over the course of 100 intimacy attempts without Hovel, you would on average end up with a loss of 17 survivors. With Protect the Young, you would end up with a gain of 109 new survivors. (With the Hovel, it would be -18 survivors including 1 savior for SotF, and +90 survivors including 19 saviors).

Even with the buffs, Survival of the Fittest means you can't rely on outbreeding your failures.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Wirtz
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, my group at least never has SotF kids w/o paint...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Henry Akeley
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ocSherlock wrote:
Epidemius wrote:
malkaven wrote:
This is a pretty significant change. Right now Saviors age three times for each completed showdown. Adam used a red savior in his example. For each red affinity the red savior has they get an automatic hit. It's a pretty big nerf. If you assume that a red savior with one affinity attacks 6 times that's 6 automatic hits. After the nerf you would need to age 6 times to get 6 auto hits. Hopefully that makes sense.


Slight adjustment to your example; the savior would need to have 6 red affinities for 6 auto-hits. Here you state one red affinity nets you 6 auto-hits which is incorrect.

Just want to point that out for any newbies reading this forum who might get confused.


I could be wrong, but I think he's trying to say 1 red affinity would get you 6 auto hits across 6 separate attacks which would be correct. Not that it would get you 6 auto hits in one attack.


If that's what he's saying then he's absolutely right. It is possible I misinterpreted.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig Welter
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The more he reveals about the version 1.5 changes, the worse they sound to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Henry Akeley
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
albinosquirrel wrote:
The more he reveals about the version 1.5 changes, the worse they sound to me.


Why do you say that?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.