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Star Wars: Rebellion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Boba Fett Where??? vs. Undercover rss

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Garth Brooks
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Okay, so recently I locked down a system with Boba Fett Where??? In preparation for attempting to turn Mon Mothma to the Dark Side with the Emperor. In addition to moving General Riekan in to oppose, My opponent also attempts to move Ben Kenobi into the system using the "Undercover" card which reads:

"Use when an opponent attempts a Mission, before rolling dice.. Move this leader from any system to that mission's system."

My opponent argues that since "Undercover" targets a Mission Card, he is not technically playing the Action Card in a system that would be prevented by Boba Fett Where???.

We ended up ruling that the point of Boba Fett Where??? was to block rescues and action card shenanigans, but is he technically right?
 
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Craig S.
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The action card targets Obi-Wan. He must already be in a system in order to play it...but I don't think that Bobba Fett action card would prevent it. What is the exact wording on Bobba card?
 
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Witold G
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Card for reference:

 
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Craig S.
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Undercover is played in the system Obi is in before he moves. As long as he was in a system to begin with, your friend's play was legal.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I disagree. All other action cards that move leaders would obviously be considered to be resolved in the destination system. I think Undercover should be played the same way, or perhaps considered resolved in both the system Obi-Wan is in and the target one.

The whole concept of BF?W? is to ensure the Rebel player doesn't interfere and it seems silly to allow this loophole.
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Witold G
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csouth154 wrote:
Undercover is played in the system Obi is in before he moves. As long as he was in a system to begin with, your friend's play was legal.


So if Rebels want to use "Undercover" to move Ben out of the system where "Boba Fett Where?" was played - they are not allowed?

Would you say that when you play "Ready for Action" card, it is not used in any system at all? (It moves a leader from leader pool to a system.)

I'm not arguing for or against, just thinking out loud.

Rulebook says absolutely nothing about "which system is considered the system in which action card was used, if any", that's all. Only part somewhat related (but not answering the main question at all) is below.

RR p. 02, "Action cards" section:
"Action cards used during a mission or combat can only be used
if one of the leaders shown on the card is already in the system
in which the mission or combat is occurring. The only exceptions
are action cards that specifically move the leader to the system."


(Emphasis original.)
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Witold G
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Clipper wrote:
The whole concept of BF?W? is to ensure the Rebel player doesn't interfere and it seems silly to allow this loophole.


Hmm, "ensure the Rebel player doesn't interfere"?

When Empire plays this card, Rebels are still allowed to send a leader to the system:
- by opposing, as usual,
- by activating the system.

Both seem like interfering to me...
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Aron
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Agree that that play of obi is legal move.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Ok, does not unexpectedly interfere.

And remember that 'cannot' is stronger than 'can'. It seems really out of place for Obi-Wan's card to trump Boba's with that in mind. In fact, Boba's ability to block action cards would become almost entirely worthless if it didn't stop action cards that move new leaders in.
 
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Jörgen Jakobsson
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Clipper wrote:
In fact, Boba's ability to block action cards would become almost entirely worthless if it didn't stop action cards that move new leaders in.


The ONLY action card affected would be Undercover, right? All assignment phase (and immediate) action cards for the rebels has already been played and all combat phase action cards are prevented. So what action card besides Undercover is left?

edit: I missed Wookiee guardian but that too is prevented.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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strictly speaking, undercover is definitely played in the system boba fett is in, since that's where the target mission is performed.
from that point of view it should be blocked by boba's card.

on the other hand, the nature of "undercover" is to be an unexpected occurance/a surprise, ie you think obi-wan is at place x while he's actually right there with you.
and from that point, thematically, it should be unblockable.
 
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Craig S.
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Angelsenior wrote:
strictly speaking, undercover is definitely played in the system boba fett is in, since that's where the target mission is performed.


I don't agree. Undercover is played in the system where Obi one is...and then it moves him from that system.
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Garth Brooks
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RR p. 02, "Action cards" section:
"Action cards used during a mission or combat can only be used
if one of the leaders shown on the card is already in the system
in which the mission or combat is occurring. The only exceptions
are action cards that specifically move the leader to the system."

Okay, so quoting the one RR we have I this thread, here's my takeaway:

You can't use action cards for leaders who aren't in the system where the mission or combat is occurring (where you intend to use the action card.) The only exception is when you intend to use an action card that specifically moves a leader to the system (where the mission or combat is occurring, where you intend to use the action card,) such as with "Ready For Action."

From this interpretation, it would seem that the target for Undercover is the system which you intend to move Lando or Ben to, and thus would be prevented by Boba Fett Where???.

However not gonna lie, it is debatable, and would like for Corey to provide some clarification on this, if you're out there.
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Craig S.
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Missions that move leaders are exceptions to rule and are not played in any particular system. They are played on the meader the card is moving. Nothing about Bobba's action card in question would prevent this.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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That can't be justified by the rules, Craig. I admit that my viewpoint can't be justified fully with the rules either, but it seems to make a lot more sense.

This is clearly going to require FFG input, as we are at an impasse.
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David Umstattd
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When determining where an action card can be played you need to see what triggers the card. A combat and a structure is present (target the generators,) a system being populous and it's the assignment phase (Temporary Alliance,) A diplomacy mission is failing (C3-P0) etc.

In addition to this the leader with the aciton card must be in the system where the triggering event is taking place. The exception to this rule (not the first bit) are action cards that move a leader to that system, causing them to show up to the system where the triggering event is taking place.

The triggering condition shows you what system the action card is being played in.

So in the case of Undercover the thing that triggers it is a mission being attempted by the empire in a system. That system where the mission is being attempted is the triggering condition. Thus the card is played there.

So yes Bobba Fett? Where? would stop Undercover from being played in the same way that it would keep any other card from being resolved in the system Bobba Fett was in.
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David Umstattd
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csouth154 wrote:
Missions that move leaders are exceptions to rule and are not played in any particular system. They are played on the meader the card is moving. Nothing about Bobba's action card in question would prevent this.


missions that move a leader are exceptions to the rule that leaders need to be present in the system where you play the card. This is the only rule they are exceptions to. They don't somehow add a new rule that missions can target nothing.

Missions are always played in a system. And which system they are played to is described on the card.

Undercover is not "Play to the system Obi Wan is in, move him to a different system" What triggers the card is an empire mission being attempted. So that is the target of the action card. The mission, and thus, the system the mission is being attempted in. So BFW? Would prevent the card from being played.

If undercover was being played in Obi Wan or Lando's system then it wouldn't move them at all. It would literally move them to the same system they were in.


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Simon Lindén
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I changed my opinion while reading this thread. At first I thought Undercover was used in Obi Wan's current system and not in the one he moves to. But after reading your posts I'm more inclined to agree that it is used in the new system instead. It also seems like better for balancing purposes that "Bobba Fett? Where?" trumps Undercover rather than the other way around. But has there been any official input on this topic from FFG?

But what if "Bobba Fett? Where?" was blocking the system Obi Wan or Lando is in. Would it prevent them from playing Undercover to move away from that system?
 
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David Umstattd
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Alandor wrote:


But what if "Bobba Fett? Where?" was blocking the system Obi Wan or Lando is in. Would it prevent them from playing Undercover to move away from that system?


I don't think so. Just because a card involves a system doesn't mean it "targets" the system. Nothing in "undercover" talks about the system Ben or Lando are in.


That would be like saying "You can't play 'Private Operation' on Lando because that makes me move my units and I'm going to move my units to Bobba Fett's system and I played 'Bubba Fett! Where?'"
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This might be worth of reminding:

'Rules Reference, page 01, THE GOLDEN RULES' wrote:
If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” it is absolute and cannot be overridden by other abilities.

So that in your specific case, your opponent could not use it that way for sure - perhaps he didn't play it in a system with Boba Fett (I would be surprised if it was supposed to work that way), but taking this literally, he would have used a card in it. And that is strictly forbidden.

The real question is: Is Undercover considered to be used:

1) in a destination system,
2) in a system where Lando or Obi-Wan is moving from,
3) in both systems mentioned above?

For me, option 1. is a correct one, because Lando or Obi-Wan didn't get on board as a result of using Undercover Action card. They either activated a system, were rescued or (in case of Lando) used Independent Operation card during Assignment Phase. Besides, most Action cards are resolved like majority of all in-game actions - an used leader ends up in any targeted system on board for the rest of a round.

Unless Corey points the other answer, I'm going to use the most logical solution.

Action card Undercover can be used as a bit more tricky version of Action card Track Them from RotE expansion, allowing a double movement of units during a single round. That's a reason for which someone could argue that a card is used in both systems.

 
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Witold G
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cyb3k wrote:
So that in your specific case, your opponent could not use it that way for sure - perhaps he didn't play it in a system with Boba Fett (I would be surprised if it was supposed to work that way), but taking this literally, he would have used a card in it.

(Emphasis mine.)

Are you suggesting that "playing" and "using" an action card is something different? I find no reference to "playing" an action card in the rulebook.

The terms in rulebook are interesting:
- action cards are "used",
- tactic cards and objective cards are "played",
- mission cards are "revealed".


cyb3k wrote:
The real question is: Is Undercover considered to be used:

1) in a destination system,
2) in a system where Lando or Obi-Wan is moving from,
3) in both systems mentioned above?

or...
4). in neither system?

Action cards can move leaders not only between systems, but other "locations" as well. So if the action card that moves a leader counts as used only in "destination location"... then the hypothetical action card below wouldn't be used in any system at all and therefore unaffected by Boba Fett Where, is that correct?

Special - Use at the start of your turn in the Command Phase. Move this leader from any system to your leader pool.

(At the moment I'm leaning towards the interpretation that action cards that move leaders are used in both "locations" or - less likely, I guess - in neither of them.)
 
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Perf wrote:
Are you suggesting that "playing" and "using" an action card is something different? I find no reference to "playing" an action card in the rulebook.

The terms in rulebook are interesting:
- action cards are "used",
- tactic cards and objective cards are "played",
- mission cards are "revealed".


Since most people in a thread were using those words like "playing" = "using", I'm trying to take a literal approach, referring to a meaning of those words. Assuming that "using" = "having any effect" (or: having effects which do not change anything on board, like e.g. moving a leader to a system in which he's already present), Undercover should be considered to be used in both systems affected.

"playing" = "using" approach fits to option no. 1.

For now, all we know is that "using an Action card" is a clearly imprecise term.

Perf wrote:
or...
4). in neither system?

Action cards can move leaders not only between systems, but other "locations" as well.

This option definitely does not fit to Undercover card. But, in general, you're right, there are Action cards which don't affect / aren't used any systems, or at least not directly / immediately. For example, all those providing Rebel rings, Lord Vader's Orders etc.

BTW: It seems that using Rebel rings in a locked system is also prevented by Boba Fett's Action card.

At second thought, I'm also beginning to think that option no. 3. is correct.
 
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Witold G
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cyb3k wrote:
Perf wrote:
or...
4). in neither system?

Action cards can move leaders not only between systems, but other "locations" as well.

This option definitely does not fit to Undercover card.

Yes, I meant that (and pretty much everything else in that post) more in the context of coming up with a consistent "rule" covering all theoretical action cards that "relocate" leaders in any way.

This is because we either have a general "rule" like that, or we will need to request clarification by Corey on case-by-case basis every time something like that comes up (future expansions etc.). And I think the first option is preferable.


cyb3k wrote:
BTW: It seems that using Rebel rings in a locked system is also prevented by Boba Fett's Action card.

Corey clarified some time ago:

"Using R2D2, C3P0, or the Falcon would not count as using an action card and is unaffected by the “Boba Fett? Where?” card."

Source:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25110682#25110682
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