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Subject: New Game: Fissure rss

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Rey Alicea
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2 player

Equipment
A hex board having 61 cells, 5 hexes to a side, and 61 stones of one color

Setup
Place a stone in each of the 61 cells of the board

Group - adjacent like colored stones, a single stone is also a group

Object
The player that avoids splitting the group into 2 or more groups wins

Play
Choose a starting player, turns alternate

On a turn remove 2 non adjacent stones from a line of adjacent stones

 
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Corey Clark
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Strictly speaking its probably more ergonomic to start with an empty board, add 2 pieces on a move and change the goal to be avoiding splitting the remaining board space into 2 or more distinct regions. I have reservations about this being nim-like and having a lot of boring wasting moves as with most most impartial concepts.
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Rey Alicea
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CoreyClark wrote:
Strictly speaking its probably more ergonomic to start with an empty board, add 2 pieces on a move and change the goal to be avoiding splitting the remaining board space into 2 or more distinct regions. I have reservations about this being nim-like and having a lot of boring wasting moves as with most most impartial concepts.


Sorry to hear that you don't like nim-like games.

I am quite fascinated by them.

I think that any game that has less than 2 types of movement to be nim-like.

Amazons for example has 2 types of movement and thus very nim-like, Chess on the other hand has 6 types of movement
 
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Corey Clark
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reyalicea wrote:
CoreyClark wrote:
Strictly speaking its probably more ergonomic to start with an empty board, add 2 pieces on a move and change the goal to be avoiding splitting the remaining board space into 2 or more distinct regions. I have reservations about this being nim-like and having a lot of boring wasting moves as with most most impartial concepts.


Sorry to hear that you don't like nim-like games.

I am quite fascinated by them.

I think that any game that has less than 2 types of movement to be nim-like.

Amazons for example has to types and thus very nim-like, Chess on the other hand has 6 types of movement


that's patently absurd and the reason nim games are so bad is because only one move is of any consequence while the other moves just waste time. any game where the players are distinguished in some way is sufficiently unlike nim to potentially be more interesting than that.
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Rey Alicea
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So to be clear, Amazons last to move, is not nim-like?

How about British Squares?
 
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Corey Clark
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reyalicea wrote:
So to be clear, Amazons last to move, is not nim-like?

How about British Squares?


No, not every comby is nim-like. In fact the endgame condition of having the last move has nothing to do with nim-likeness. It has to do with impartiality. In any game where the only distinguishing feature between the players is who moved first you aren't likely going to have much weight in the decisions. It might be worth an investigation if such a game can even involve tactical thinking but its hardly fecund enough ground to be treated as a genre. In fact this impartial material problem was the whole basis of my "x vs. y" idea which went into Carteso.
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Rey Alicea
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CoreyClark wrote:
reyalicea wrote:
So to be clear, Amazons last to move, is not nim-like?

How about British Squares?


No, not every comby is nim-like. In fact the endgame condition of having the last move has nothing to do with nim-likeness. It has to do with impartiality. In any game where the only distinguishing feature between the players is who moved first you aren't likely going to have much weight in the decisions. It might be worth an investigation if such a game can even involve tactical thinking but its hardly fecund enough ground to be treated as a genre. In fact this impartial material problem was the whole basis of my "x vs. y" idea which went into Carteso.


Thank you, these discussions are important to me.

I'm learning something from you guys every day.
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Rey Alicea
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Corey how is this?

Fissure
By Rey Alicea

2 player

Equipment
A hex board having 37 cells, 4 hexes to a side, and 36 stones in 2 colors

Setup
Place a stone, alternating the colors, in each of the 36 cells of the board leaving the center hex empty

Group - one or more adjacent stones

Object
Player with the least number of stones on the board wins

Play
Choose a starting player, turns alternate

On a turn remove 1 friendly and 1 enemy non-adjacent stone from a line of adjacent stones. The friendly stone you keep, the enemy stone is moved to an empty cell adjacent to the largest group.

If the group is split into 2 or more groups the player that caused the split removes and keeps the friendly stones of the smaller group, the enemy stones are then moved to empty cells adjacent to the largest group.

If the group is split into 2 or more equal size groups the player that caused the split decides what group to take, he then removes and keeps the friendly stones, the enemy stones are then moved to empty cells adjacent to the largest group.

If a player is unable to take his turn, he must pass. If both players pass consecutively the game ends.


 
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Russ Williams
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Of possible interest, Rey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impartial_game

that (alas short) article wrote:
an impartial game is a game in which the allowable moves depend only on the position and not on which of the two players is currently moving, and where the payoffs are symmetric. In other words, the only difference between player 1 and player 2 is that player 1 goes first.


So a game like Amazons (where you can only move a piece which is your color) is not impartial.

Similarly a game where pieces are neutral but the goals are different is not impartial.

In Nim, both players can do the same moves if it's their turn in a given position, and they both win the same way.
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Nathan James
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CoreyClark wrote:

No, not every comby is nim-like. In fact the endgame condition of having the last move has nothing to do with nim-likeness. It has to do with impartiality. In any game where the only distinguishing feature between the players is who moved first you aren't likely going to have much weight in the decisions. It might be worth an investigation if such a game can even involve tactical thinking but its hardly fecund enough ground to be treated as a genre. In fact this impartial material problem was the whole basis of my "x vs. y" idea which went into Carteso.

This deserves further consideration.
 
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Luis Bolaños Mures
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When I read the Wikipedia article on impartial games for the first time, I remember inferring from

russ wrote:
that (alas short) article wrote:
an impartial game is a game in which the allowable moves depend only on the position and not on which of the two players is currently moving, and where the payoffs are symmetric.

that

russ wrote:
both [players] win the same way

, but the expression "payoffs are symmetric" doesn't quite compute for me. I wonder what exactly "payoff" and "symmetric" mean in this context.
 
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Benjamin T. Rancourt
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luigi87 wrote:
When I read the Wikipedia article on impartial games for the first time, I remember inferring from

russ wrote:
that (alas short) article wrote:
an impartial game is a game in which the allowable moves depend only on the position and not on which of the two players is currently moving, and where the payoffs are symmetric.

that

russ wrote:
both [players] win the same way

, but the expression "payoffs are symmetric" doesn't quite compute for me. I wonder what exactly "payoff" and "symmetric" mean in this context.

I think ZÈRTZ is a good example of asymmetric payoff. Suppose the next player to move will capture 1 white marble. Suppose you have 3 white marbles and I have 2. If you are the next player to move, you win. If I am the next player to move, I don't. The payoff is not symmetric, so it is not an impartial game.

I take 'symmetry' in this context to mean the truth value of "Player P achieves result R" is preserved when switching which player is P.

I suspect that in all meaningful cases 'payoff' just reduces to winning. Strictly speaking, payoff need not reduce to winning. For example, consider a Nim variant where one player gets 1 point for each object they pick up and the other player gets 2 points for each object they pick up, but everything else is the same. The points in this game are completely meaningless, but the payoff is technically asymmetric. If the points did make a difference, then the win conditions would no longer be symmetric. Hence, my suspicion that meaningful asymmetry in payoff occurs just in case there is asymmetry in win conditions.
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