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Subject: Feld Reprints, Energy Empire, or Troyes Reprint? HELP! rss

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Michael Gonzalez
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{There's a TL;DR recap at the end!}

I'm fairly new to this hobby, but one of my absolute favorite games is The Castles of Burgundy, and I've been hoping for some more Feld in my life ever since the first time I played it. So, when I heard Notre Dame and In the Year of the Dragon were getting reprinted, I thought I'd get one of them....

Here's the problem: I watch several reviewers with different tastes, so that I can get a well-rounded perspective. A couple of the ones who don't normally agree on things were agreeing on Notre Dame, so I was going to go for it. But I really was intrigued by Rahdo's runthrough of Troyes, and another of my favorite reviewers also ADORES that game, while some of the others call it a heartless, gear-grinding Euro....

And then The Manhattan Project: Energy Empire came along. All of the reviewers I listen to have given this stellar ratings. It is astounding how much they all seem to agree on this.

What do I do? What are the pros/cons of each game?

You can look at my collection, but it's just woefully inadequate at the moment. Judging from my love of CoB, Cry Havoc, and Viticulture: EE, it looks like my current sweet spot is around a 3 - 3.5 weight. But then, I enjoy heavier and lighter games too.

TL;DR I like Euros and would love more Stefan Feld games, I'm intrigued by Troyes, and then a wide spectrum of reviewers all gushed about Manhattan Project Energy Empire, so I don't know what to do!
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Nate
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Mentat1231 wrote:
{There's a TL;DR recap at the end!}

I'm fairly new to this hobby, but one of my absolute favorite games is The Castles of Burgundy, and I've been hoping for some more Feld in my life ever since the first time I played it. So, when I heard Notre Dame and In the Year of the Dragon were getting reprinted, I thought I'd get one of them....

Here's the problem: I watch several reviewers with different tastes, so that I can get a well-rounded perspective. A couple of the ones who don't normally agree on things were agreeing on Notre Dame, so I was going to go for it. But I really was intrigued by Rahdo's runthrough of Troyes, and another of my favorite reviewers also ADORES that game, while some of the others call it a heartless, gear-grinding Euro....

And then The Manhattan Project: Energy Empire came along. All of the reviewers I listen to have given this stellar ratings. It is astounding how much they all seem to agree on this.

What do I do? What are the pros/cons of each game?

You can look at my collection, but it's just woefully inadequate at the moment. Judging from my love of CoB, Cry Havoc, and Viticulture: EE, it looks like my current sweet spot is around a 3 - 3.5 weight. But then, I enjoy heavier and lighter games too.

TL;DR I like Euros and would love more Stefan Feld games, I'm intrigued by Troyes, and then a wide spectrum of reviewers all gushed about Manhattan Project Energy Empire, so I don't know what to do!


I own Troyes, Castles of Burgundy, Notre Dame, and am looking forward to buying ItyotD when it becomes available (holding onto some birthday money for it).

Troyes: It definitely shares many similarities to CoB. The main mechanic is dice placement, but the way you go about it and what you do is more complex than in CoB. I love Troyes and I think it's a blast to play. There's more interaction (you can buy dice from your opponents) and more you can do with your dice than in CoB. Highly recommend, and it's the one I would buy if I could only buy one of Troyes/Notre Dame/In the Year of the Dragon.

Notre Dame: It's one of Feld's lighter fare. It's a lot of fun early on, but I feel lacks in replayability compared to some of the other games mentioned. It was a huge success when I got it, but now it's played more seldomly. That's mainly due to the lack of variety game to game (there is some in the order the cards come out, but you'll see all the cards every time). It's always fun when we break it out, but we just don't do that as much anymore due to lack of variability game to game. A very solid game and worth owning, but I feel a step below CoB and Troyes.

In the Year of the Dragon: Haven't played it yet, but I'm very much looking forward to it. Supposed to be one of Feld's more punishing titles.
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Shane Larsen
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Troyes is divine.

There will always be people calling Euro games "heartless" and "soulless". Uhhhh, yeah. They're Euros. Interesting decisions and unique mechanisms are prioritized over theme. If that's what you want, who cares if people call it names.

Did I mention that Troyes is divine?
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Michael Gonzalez
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YellowJack wrote:
Mentat1231 wrote:
{There's a TL;DR recap at the end!}

I'm fairly new to this hobby, but one of my absolute favorite games is The Castles of Burgundy, and I've been hoping for some more Feld in my life ever since the first time I played it. So, when I heard Notre Dame and In the Year of the Dragon were getting reprinted, I thought I'd get one of them....

Here's the problem: I watch several reviewers with different tastes, so that I can get a well-rounded perspective. A couple of the ones who don't normally agree on things were agreeing on Notre Dame, so I was going to go for it. But I really was intrigued by Rahdo's runthrough of Troyes, and another of my favorite reviewers also ADORES that game, while some of the others call it a heartless, gear-grinding Euro....

And then The Manhattan Project: Energy Empire came along. All of the reviewers I listen to have given this stellar ratings. It is astounding how much they all seem to agree on this.

What do I do? What are the pros/cons of each game?

You can look at my collection, but it's just woefully inadequate at the moment. Judging from my love of CoB, Cry Havoc, and Viticulture: EE, it looks like my current sweet spot is around a 3 - 3.5 weight. But then, I enjoy heavier and lighter games too.

TL;DR I like Euros and would love more Stefan Feld games, I'm intrigued by Troyes, and then a wide spectrum of reviewers all gushed about Manhattan Project Energy Empire, so I don't know what to do!


I own Troyes, Castles of Burgundy, Notre Dame, and am looking forward to buying ItyotD when it becomes available (holding onto some birthday money for it).

Troyes: It definitely shares many similarities to CoB. The main mechanic is dice placement, but the way you go about it and what you do is more complex than in CoB. I love Troyes and I think it's a blast to play. There's more interaction (you can buy dice from your opponents) and more you can do with your dice than in CoB. Highly recommend, and it's the one I would buy if I could only buy one of Troyes/Notre Dame/In the Year of the Dragon.

Notre Dame: It's one of Feld's lighter fare. It's a lot of fun early on, but I feel lacks in replayability compared to some of the other games mentioned. It was a huge success when I got it, but now it's played more seldomly. That's mainly due to the lack of variety game to game (there is some in the order the cards come out, but you'll see all the cards every time). It's always fun when we break it out, but we just don't do that as much anymore due to lack of variability game to game. A very solid game and worth owning, but I feel a step below CoB and Troyes.

In the Year of the Dragon: Haven't played it yet, but I'm very much looking forward to it. Supposed to be one of Feld's more punishing titles.


That's exactly what I needed to know! Thanks

Have you played Manhattan Project: EE, though? The only reason it's messing up my decision here is because everyone from Rahdo and other eurogamers to the Dice Tower folks think it's amazing....
 
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Michael Gonzalez
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thedacker wrote:
Troyes is divine.

There will always be people calling Euro games "heartless" and "soulless". Uhhhh, yeah. They're Euros. Interesting decisions and unique mechanisms are prioritized over theme. If that's what you want, who cares if people call it names.

Did I mention that Troyes is divine?


I really really want to try it! I just hate to miss out if the Feld reprints are as good as CoB, or if the Manhattan Project: EE is even better (though I don't see how it could be).
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Josh Bodah
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Troyes is one of the better games of the last decade for me. It may be a long time until you see another printing of it after this one. The dice drafting in it is really good (probably the best) and I'm always a sucker for games with event systems
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Nicholas
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I really like Notre Dame, but for me it is a quick filler for the start/end of game night.

ItYoD is great too. You can try it online against AI if you want to. There's a link somewhere on the ItYoD BGG page. It can feel very punishing to players new to it, so make sure your gaming buddies would be up for it (mine aren't ).
I only played Troyes once. Didn't really care for it. But it definitly is a game which is very well developed. From your list, it is the one closed to CoB, although it offers many more meaningful decisions.

EE is great fun. In a low player count, the board is pretty wide open, so there is not a lot of interaction. Still fun though. With 4 players, the game feels much harder, as the worker spots are more contested. From your list, it is the only one with some theme to it.

All of your choices are rather unique in some way.
If you can't or won't buy them all, consider your gaming opponents and ask them what's the most intriguing to them. After all, if you can't get the game played, you won't have much fun with it!
 
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Michael Gonzalez
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Nicholas M wrote:
I really like Notre Dame, but for me it is a quick filler for the start/end of game night.

ItYoD is great too. You can try it online against AI if you want to. There's a link somewhere on the ItYoD BGG page. It can feel very punishing to players new to it, so make sure your gaming buddies would be up for it (mine aren't ).
I only played Troyes once. Didn't really care for it. But it definitly is a game which is very well developed. From your list, it is the one closed to CoB, although it offers many more meaningful decisions.

EE is great fun. In a low player count, the board is pretty wide open, so there is not a lot of interaction. Still fun though. With 4 players, the game feels much harder, as the worker spots are more contested. From your list, it is the only one with some theme to it.

All of your choices are rather unique in some way.
If you can't or won't buy them all, consider your gaming opponents and ask them what's the most intriguing to them. After all, if you can't get the game played, you won't have much fun with it!


Good points!

Let me ask this: I really like CoB and Viticulture, and I don't want whichever of these candidates I choose to overlap TOO much with either of those. For example, I know that Manhattan Project is a worker placement game, but I was hoping it wouldn't overlap with Viticulture too much... likewise, I know Troyes is a dice placement game, but I don't want anything crowding into CoB's territory too much. The latter overlap, I'm assuming, can't be too bad since Rahdo has both of CoB and Troyes in his top ten games....

What are your thoughts?
 
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Carl Hintze
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Troyes is really something special and who knows if it will be reprinted after this run is out.
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Des Lee
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Mentat1231 wrote:
I don't want whichever of these candidates I choose to overlap TOO much with either of those.


This is not really much of a consideration for me. If they're both good enough, I will happily own both regardless of whether they share some of the same mechanics/characteristics. I own Lords of Waterdeep, Stone Age, Viticulture, Manhattan Project, Caylus etc even though they're all worker placement games.

Having said that, there's very very few games that are straight out copies of another. Troyes and COB both use dice, but use them in very different ways. Troyes is a much heavier, deeper game than COB, and I like them both very much. Notre Dame is a lighter game, but I really like it too, it's all about how efficient you can be with a very limited number of actions.
 
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Nate
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Mentat1231 wrote:

That's exactly what I needed to know! Thanks

Have you played Manhattan Project: EE, though? The only reason it's messing up my decision here is because everyone from Rahdo and other eurogamers to the Dice Tower folks think it's amazing....


Unfortunately I haven't. I feel I have enough worker placement games at this point so haven't really looked into it much, but I've heard good things about it.
 
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Sean Geraghty
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If you can only get one game, get Energy Empire. It is my favorite game of all time!
 
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Jared
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Troyes (my favorite):
Classic dice drafter with several paths and ways to convert resources and above all the most fun scoring/secret goal out there. Each player has a special score goal but the fun part is every player's card will score for everyone. This creates a level of deduction as players try to find out each other's identity so they too can cash in on having enough currency, influence, cathedral building, etc. to score as well. Other players for this reason are trying to throw you off.

For Feld games, Trajan is another great one for me with the mancala as the restriction mechanism instead of dice but everyone has different Feld favorites. Notre Dame is definitely up there and the new print will include the expansion (that I've been missing) that adds much needed variety. It's fast but satisfying and silky smooth.

The Manhattan Project: Energy Empire is about to go on my purchase list. Looks like a deep but smooth worker placement which can be a rarity.

My advice: get all three. You'll save on shipping. devil





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Shane Larsen
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Mentat1231 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
Troyes is divine.

There will always be people calling Euro games "heartless" and "soulless". Uhhhh, yeah. They're Euros. Interesting decisions and unique mechanisms are prioritized over theme. If that's what you want, who cares if people call it names.

Did I mention that Troyes is divine?


I really really want to try it! I just hate to miss out if the Feld reprints are as good as CoB, or if the Manhattan Project: EE is even better (though I don't see how it could be).

Well IMO, Troyes is better than CoB. Way better.
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Michael Gonzalez
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R3DSH1FT wrote:

Troyes (my favorite):
Classic dice drafter with several paths and ways to convert resources and above all the most fun scoring/secret goal out there. Each player has a special score goal but the fun part is every player's card will score for everyone. This creates a level of deduction as players try to find out each other's identity so they too can cash in on having enough currency, influence, cathedral building, etc. to score as well. Other players for this reason are trying to throw you off.

For Feld games, Trajan is another great one for me with the mancala as the restriction mechanism instead of dice but everyone has different Feld favorites. Notre Dame is definitely up there and the new print will include the expansion (that I've been missing) that adds much needed variety. It's fast but satisfying and silky smooth.

The Manhattan Project: Energy Empire is about to go on my purchase list. Looks like a deep but smooth worker placement which can be a rarity.

My advice: get all three. You'll save on shipping. devil


You're a bad influence!
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benjamin CLOVIS
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I'm sorry I havent played the Manhattan Project so this might not be quite that useful.
Troyes is one of my favourite games, however it is a tough game. There are a handful of games out there (tzolkin, troyes) where playing the game in a subpar manner can lead you to having no engine, and constantly staving off catastrophe rather than working on your engine. So make sure that it is appropriate for your group. It's not that it's harder or heavier than the other games listed, it's that playing it poorly is very penalising. If you play in a subpar manner at CoB it is no big deal, you just get less points at the end, and don't get the bonuses you wanted, but your game experience will be very similar to a good player's. Not so for Troyes.
And yet I still recommend it highly, because it is a great game.

+1 for Trajan. I think you should look into that one as well.

Let us know what you end up doing

cheers
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Kasper Lauest
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If you are looking for something with some of the feel of Burgundy but heavier, Troyes is certainly a very good pick.

If you want another Feld title with a somewhat similar feel, but heavier, I would first and foremost look at Trajan and Bora Bora. Notre Dame is a lighter game and In The Year Of The Dragon, while a very good game, has a quite different feel to Burgundy and is largely a game of avoiding disaster.

So I would recommend Troyes, Trajan and Bora Bora. Honestly, if you like one of those three, you are highly likely to also like the other two, so I don't think which one you pick is going to be all that important. For the record, I think Trajan is probably the most interesting of the three dure to the intriguing mancala mechanism, but I personally like them all a lot. If you want dice placement, go with Troyes or Bora Bora.
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Michael Gonzalez
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clovisIII wrote:
I'm sorry I havent played the Manhattan Project so this might not be quite that useful.
Troyes is one of my favourite games, however it is a tough game. There are a handful of games out there (tzolkin, troyes) where playing the game in a subpar manner can lead you to having no engine, and constantly staving off catastrophe rather than working on your engine. So make sure that it is appropriate for your group. It's not that it's harder or heavier than the other games listed, it's that playing it poorly is very penalising. If you play in a subpar manner at CoB it is no big deal, you just get less points at the end, and don't get the bonuses you wanted, but your game experience will be very similar to a good player's. Not so for Troyes.
And yet I still recommend it highly, because it is a great game.

+1 for Trajan. I think you should look into that one as well.

Let us know what you end up doing

cheers


Here's the other consideration I should have mentioned (and you alluded to it): my group. My typical gaming group had only played simpler games for a while (and usually with a science fiction setting). So, it took a while to convince them to play Castles of Burgundy. When they did, they really liked it. And they have, since then, also enjoyed Viticulture: EE. As much as I'd love to own Troyes, Trajan, and many many other Euro games; you were right to be concerned about my group. Maybe they need something less punishing than Troyes for the moment?

But Trajan is supposed to be rather "heavy" (whatever that means), isn't it? It has a 3.67 weight rating here on BGG. Do you think it will be too hard for people who are good at CoB (3.04), V:EE (2.99), and Cry Havoc (3.28), to understand and enjoy Trajan? If not, then maybe that's the one I'll try. I've been interested in it for some time.

P.S. Forgive my asking a very stupid question, but, given that you are French, could you tell me how to pronounce "Troyes"? Lol. I've been pronouncing it the same as the number "troi". Is that right?
 
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Michael Gonzalez
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BlueSwan wrote:
If you are looking for something with some of the feel of Burgundy but heavier, Troyes is certainly a very good pick.

If you want another Feld title with a somewhat similar feel, but heavier, I would first and foremost look at Trajan and Bora Bora. Notre Dame is a lighter game and In The Year Of The Dragon, while a very good game, has a quite different feel to Burgundy and is largely a game of avoiding disaster.

So I would recommend Troyes, Trajan and Bora Bora. Honestly, if you like one of those three, you are highly likely to also like the other two, so I don't think which one you pick is going to be all that important. For the record, I think Trajan is probably the most interesting of the three dure to the intriguing mancala mechanism, but I personally like them all a lot. If you want dice placement, go with Troyes or Bora Bora.


Thank you for that! Bora Bora hadn't even been on my radar, but I'll consider it as well. Trajan does look very interesting (I've watched part of Rahdo's runthrough of it). I am most certainly up for a heavier Feld game, but I do worry a bit about my group....
 
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Hi Michael,
I have really gotten into board games in the last two years. So things that seemed really hardcore to me before, seem much easier now. of course, when I then bring a game that I consider medium to my family they're all like "what the bleep is this?!?"
I think trajan is considered relatively heavy because there are so many choices one can make, and the mancala system (which is just cool. I just love any game that has a rondel or mandala) definitely has you trying to think few steps ahead. But you don't have to when you are starting. In the end, I find Trajan a lot less punishing than troyes, but there are definitely choices that need to be made.
Basically think of CoB (do i ship now, do i buy this resource, do i place this resource? now do the same thing but adding two or three more options. nothing hard, but definitely a lot of thinking)
And yes, in french it is pronounced like the number three 'troa'. But i definitely would not find it weird for it to be pronounced troy in english, or even troys.`
good luck
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Michael Gonzalez
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clovisIII wrote:
Hi Michael,
I have really gotten into board games in the last two years. So things that seemed really hardcore to me before, seem much easier now. of course, when I then bring a game that I consider medium to my family they're all like "what the bleep is this?!?"
I think trajan is considered relatively heavy because there are so many choices one can make, and the mancala system (which is just cool. I just love any game that has a rondel or mandala) definitely has you trying to think few steps ahead. But you don't have to when you are starting. In the end, I find Trajan a lot less punishing than troyes, but there are definitely choices that need to be made.
Basically think of CoB (do i ship now, do i buy this resource, do i place this resource? now do the same thing but adding two or three more options. nothing hard, but definitely a lot of thinking)
And yes, in french it is pronounced like the number three 'troa'. But i definitely would not find it weird for it to be pronounced troy in english, or even troys.`
good luck


Thank you for the response. I will definitely consider Trajan.
 
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Alexandre Santos
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clovisIII wrote:
I'm sorry I havent played the Manhattan Project so this might not be quite that useful.
Troyes is one of my favourite games, however it is a tough game. There are a handful of games out there (tzolkin, troyes) where playing the game in a subpar manner can lead you to having no engine, and constantly staving off catastrophe rather than working on your engine. So make sure that it is appropriate for your group.


+1

Troyes is a great game, but you need players who are stimulated by defeat rather than turned off.

My own first experience with Troyes was so so, as I was crushed without managing to do much of anything, but since then it has become a pleasantly vicious fight for dice and points (theme? what theme? )
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AlexFS wrote:
clovisIII wrote:
I'm sorry I havent played the Manhattan Project so this might not be quite that useful.
Troyes is one of my favourite games, however it is a tough game. There are a handful of games out there (tzolkin, troyes) where playing the game in a subpar manner can lead you to having no engine, and constantly staving off catastrophe rather than working on your engine. So make sure that it is appropriate for your group.


+1

Troyes is a great game, but you need players who are stimulated by defeat rather than turned off.

My own first experience with Troyes was so so, as I was crushed without managing to do much of anything, but since then it has become a pleasantly vicious fight for dice and points (theme? what theme? )


Judging from this, and from other points that people have made, I think I may need to hold off on Troyes, for the sake of my group. They will need a few more Euros under their belts before they can appreciate this game, I think. The problem is that I'm not sure which ones to use for that purpose. Notre Dame seems simpler and easier to get into, but I worry that I'll be bored with it (after seeing what everyone has said). Trajan seems very interesting and deep, but I worry that the group will not be ready for it....

I guess I'll just have to try a couple and then trade them out if they flop.
 
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Jon Bowker
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If your group loves CoB, don't try to replace it find something that you'll always compare it to. Mind you I hate CoB but love Troyes for my own reasons. IMO, as a new gamer it is also worth exploring different things and you'll find what you like as opposed to more of the same. And if you don't like something, the BGG marketplace and trade system are both pretty great.
If you specifically want to check out more Feld, go with In the Year as it is unlike any of the other games mentioned. I call it an exercise in damage mitigation, but I wouldn't consider it any heavier than most of his game. The game set up shows you what is going to happen and in which order, the players' jobs are to plan for them as they see fit.
 
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Troyes - NOTHING is like Troyes. it is a very unique game. There is no need to worry about it being too close to Burgundy. The one similarity is that you can change the dice rolls (but even that is done differently). And of course, it is also a Eurogame. But to me, the similarities end there. I would say Troyes FEELS like Trajan, Le Havre, and Aquasphere combined. I am not comparing gameplay mechanisms. I am just talking about the feel. It is reactive and tactical, like Trajan, seemingly simple paths take longer to see fruition, like in Le Havre, and the game can be tight and restrictive unless moves are carefully planned - like in Aquasphere. It is excellent at 2-players - just like the games I just mentioned. If you are a Eurogamer, then this is a classic must-have, and it doesn't stay in stock for every long each time it is reprinted.

Energy Empire - Yes, there does seem to be a consensus among the majority of reviewers regarding Energy Empire. That's why I bought the game(jumped on the hype train). However, there is an outlying review from "JonGetsGames" that does mention some criticisms, and after playing it, I have to agree some of them. I think Empire is a good game (among other good games), but Troyes is in a league of it's own and is a must have.

I cannot comment on Notre Dame, as I don't have it. I thought about buying the reprint, but I heard it is a light game, and my wife and I already have enough games to scratch that itch.










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