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Subject: C Streets of Stalingrad Victory Conditions rss

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Russell D
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I'm preparing to play Scenario C Streets of Stalingrad, which means playing Scenarios A and B simultaneously, and looking at the VCs.

To win Scenario C I need to win the VCs of at least one of scenarios A and B and draw the other.

1. It looks to me like it's impossible to draw the Victory Conditions of Scenario A (Guards Counterattack)? i.e. One side must win, there are no draws.

So to win I have to win A (Guards Counterattack) and get at least a draw in B (The Tractor Works).

Is that right? Because the VCs as written seem like a rather confusing way of expressing that!


2. The VCs of B (The Tractor Works) are a bit confusing too:

"At game end, the player with undisputed control of at least six hexes of building 1X3 wins. A hex containing a Melee is controlled by neither player. If only one player has an unbroken unit in the building at game end, that player is the winner. Any other result is a draw."

It is possible for one player to have control of at least six hexes of building 1X3 AND for the other player to be the only player with an unbroken unit in the building at game end. In that case, the result is presumably a draw (and so whoever wins the VCs of Scenario A will win the overall game).

Am I getting this right?
 
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Russell D
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And-- sorry-- I have more questions about this.

1. Setup for Scenario B says "Elements of the 295th Rifle Division [ELR: 3] set up last in buildings P8, P5, Q4, and R1". Can I leave any of these 4 buildings empty?

2. VC for Scenario A says "The Russians win at game end if they Control ≥ 2 more buildings initially occupied by the Germans than they lose of their own initially-held stone buildings to German Control..."

When I am playing Scenario C, presumably this VC is evaluated across the whole of Board 1, i.e. the setup area for Scenario A and Scenario B?

3. If the answer to 1 and 2 above are both yes, are the Russian "initially-held stone buildings" in the above VC the buildings which the Russians could set up in, or the ones they do in fact set up in? (e.g. Russia might leave, say, P8 empty, then the Germans can easily take Control to assist with the Scenario A VCs)
 
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Bruce Probst
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It's kind of a moot point. Scenario B is dramatically pro-Russian, i.e., it's unusual for the Germans to win (the factory is a killing ground). Scenario A on the other hand can easily go either way and is always fun to play.

You are correct, there is no draw result possible in Scenario A. I don't see any confusion possible with the VC as written.

Quote:
It is possible for one player to have control of at least six hexes of building 1X3 AND for the other player to be the only player with an unbroken unit in the building at game end. In that case, the result is presumably a draw


No, the player with the unbroken unit alone in the building wins. That sentence of the VC is explicit and takes precedence over the previous statement. (You are correct that it is possible for each player to achieve one part of the VC, but you read the whole VC in order, so the third sentence overrides the first.) Yes, these VC could be written better.

Yes, you can leave buildings empty if you want. If that was not the case, there would be a statement like "at least one MMC must be set up in each building".

No, the VC for each half of the scenario applies to that half, as if you were only playing that half (including the section of board that is in play).

So your last question is NA, but in general terms, any building that you are allowed to set up in (even if you don't actually set up in it) is still Controlled by you (unless the scenario allows both sides to set up in the same building). That's the first paragraph of A26.11.
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Russell D
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Thanks.

BruceP wrote:
That sentence of the VC is explicit and takes precedence over the previous statement.


Both sentences are explicit: I've never seen VCs before where I needed to know that a later sentence takes precedence over an earlier sentence.

Quote:
Yes, you can leave buildings empty if you want. If that was not the case, there would be a statement like "at least one MMC must be set up in each building".


In the case of the German setup "and/or" is used, in the case of the Russian "and" is used. That's what confused me.

Quote:
No, the VC for each half of the scenario applies to that half, as if you were only playing that half (including the section of board that is in play).


OK. So one way for the Russians to win the Scenario A VCs is for the Russians to have "a favorable 3:1 ratio (Russian to German) of unbroken squad-equivalents." So at game end do you count the squad-equivalents in hexrows A-P, or the squad-equivalents that were originally part of the Scenario A OOB? I guess the former as the latter is impractical.

 
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Bruce Probst
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angelgabriel wrote:
Both sentences are explicit: I've never seen VCs before where I needed to know that a later sentence takes precedence over an earlier sentence.


Well, I've already indicated that the VC for Scenario C are worded poorly. <shrug> If you need a definitive answer, you should send a Q to MMP.

In practice the situation you describe -- one player has control of 6+ hexes but the other player has the only unbroken occupant(s) -- would be rare in the extreme.

Quote:
In the case of the German setup "and/or" is used, in the case of the Russian "and" is used. That's what confused me.


Sloppy wording (not unusual in very old scenarios such as this). You might be right in that the intention was to force the Russians to put units into all four of the buildings, but if so that intention failed. You can find any number of other scenarios which invariably use some form of the "minimum x units in each building" instruction where that is required.

Quote:
OK. So one way for the Russians to win the Scenario A VCs is for the Russians to have "a favorable 3:1 ratio (Russian to German) of unbroken squad-equivalents." So at game end do you count the squad-equivalents in hexrows A-P, or the squad-equivalents that were originally part of the Scenario A OOB? I guess the former as the latter is impractical.


Right. Which just emphasises the balance problems of Scenario C; since Scenario B is almost unwinnable for the Germans any way, the Russians have the potential to "overload" Scenario A.

IMO Scenarios B and C have little play value other than for instructional purposes (and they are fine for that purpose, as long as you're aware of that).

For reference ROAR has Scenario A at 218 Russian wins, 229 German wins, 2 draws and 1 no result. (The draws were obviously some local players' agreement.) That's about 50.9% pro-German, an almost perfect result. Game play is rated at 6.96, i.e., most players found it very enjoyable (9 is the maximum score).

Scenario B is 68 Russian, 34 German and 3 no results. (No draws!) That's 64.8% pro-Russian, but I would expect that number to be even higher if both players have about equal experience (and have experience) -- I'd attribute a majority of German wins to inexperienced Russian play. Game play is 6.62, which is fair enough again if the players are not very experienced -- it's a fairly tense situation.

Scenario C is 45 Russian, 26 German, 15 draws and 1 no result. That's 51.7% pro-Russian, which would be a very good number until you discount the very high incidence of "draw" results. Game play is 7.27, which is exceptional. I suspect a lot of that good will is a combination of "lots of fun in the Scenario A half" + "tense situation in Scenario B half" + "get to play with tanks" -- certainly an important consideration, especially for inexperienced players.
 
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