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Subject: Paying Shares for Deal with Shares Earned from Same Deal rss

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Dave Eisen
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Is it possible to participate in the deal which costs 1 share to flip a train if you have no shares? The approach here would be to flip a train that provides 3 shares and then using one of those shares to pay for the deal.

The rules on reorganizing steps of an action to pay for the action do not clearly apply in this case.
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Dylan Maillard
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dkeisen wrote:
Is it possible to participate in the deal which costs 1 share to flip a train if you have no shares? The approach here would be to flip a train that provides 3 shares and then using one of those shares to pay for the deal.

The rules on reorganizing steps of an action to pay for the action do not clearly apply in this case.

No you can't, you have to pay first for the deal to receive the shares.
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Joel Oakley
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I agree the rules could use some clarification as to how far the order of resolution options extend. In particular, can the benefits of flipping a train be used to pay for the train flip (whether via a deal, station bonus, etc.)?

It seems consistent with the rules to allow benefits to be used to pay for the train flips. This is very different than the usual type of rules I have encountered in this style of game.
 
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Peter D
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These two above replies contradict each other.

Is there an official answer?
 
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Michiel Hillenius
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duckworp wrote:
These two above replies contradict each other.

Is there an official answer?


I am nothing official, but it can't be anything different than Dylan is saying. You can do the main action and the additional action in any order you want, but you would always first have to pay before you get the benefit. Likewise for the deals. First pay what is required, than get the benefit.
 
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Peter D
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Michiel wrote:
duckworp wrote:
These two above replies contradict each other.

Is there an official answer?


I am nothing official, but it can't be anything different than Dylan is saying. You can do the main action and the additional action in any order you want, but you would always first have to pay before you get the benefit. Likewise for the deals. First pay what is required, than get the benefit.


But Joel is saying that the rules state: "if you want to perform an action, but do not have enough money to do so, and an effect of the action allows you to obtain the money, you can resolve that effect first, gain the money, and then pay the cost of the action." Doesn't this imply that you may use the benefit to pay the requirement of the benefit?
 
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Antongiulio Dona'
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duckworp wrote:
Michiel wrote:
duckworp wrote:
These two above replies contradict each other.

Is there an official answer?


I am nothing official, but it can't be anything different than Dylan is saying. You can do the main action and the additional action in any order you want, but you would always first have to pay before you get the benefit. Likewise for the deals. First pay what is required, than get the benefit.


But Joel is saying that the rules state: "if you want to perform an action, but do not have enough money to do so, and an effect of the action allows you to obtain the money, you can resolve that effect first, gain the money, and then pay the cost of the action." Doesn't this imply that you may use the benefit to pay the requirement of the benefit?


To flip a train is not an Action, the Action is to build a Station, to flip a train is an ability of the violet worker that says "Pay $100 to flip a train". First pay then flip. You can choose when to build the station, I mean before or after the flip so you may get shares to sell immediately to pay the building cost. Pay $100, flip, get and sell share, pay building cost.
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Veronica WYG
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totodona wrote:
duckworp wrote:
Michiel wrote:
duckworp wrote:
These two above replies contradict each other.

Is there an official answer?


I am nothing official, but it can't be anything different than Dylan is saying. You can do the main action and the additional action in any order you want, but you would always first have to pay before you get the benefit. Likewise for the deals. First pay what is required, than get the benefit.


But Joel is saying that the rules state: "if you want to perform an action, but do not have enough money to do so, and an effect of the action allows you to obtain the money, you can resolve that effect first, gain the money, and then pay the cost of the action." Doesn't this imply that you may use the benefit to pay the requirement of the benefit?


To flip a train is not an Action, the Action is to build a Station, to flip a train is an ability of the violet worker that says "Pay $100 to flip a train". First pay then flip. You can choose when to build the station, I mean before or after the flip so you may get shares to sell immediately to pay the building cost. Pay $100, flip, get and sell share, pay building cost.


The general rule is
"You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself."

Special abilities are not actions, nor are the deals so the rule does not apply to them.

So, both for special abilities and for deals, the "normal" order is applied. First pay, then get the benefit.

To answer the OP question, you can't flip a train that provides 3 shares and then using one of those shares to pay for the deal.



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Mike Geller
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Veronica WYG wrote:
totodona wrote:
duckworp wrote:
Michiel wrote:
duckworp wrote:
These two above replies contradict each other.

Is there an official answer?


I am nothing official, but it can't be anything different than Dylan is saying. You can do the main action and the additional action in any order you want, but you would always first have to pay before you get the benefit. Likewise for the deals. First pay what is required, than get the benefit.


But Joel is saying that the rules state: "if you want to perform an action, but do not have enough money to do so, and an effect of the action allows you to obtain the money, you can resolve that effect first, gain the money, and then pay the cost of the action." Doesn't this imply that you may use the benefit to pay the requirement of the benefit?


To flip a train is not an Action, the Action is to build a Station, to flip a train is an ability of the violet worker that says "Pay $100 to flip a train". First pay then flip. You can choose when to build the station, I mean before or after the flip so you may get shares to sell immediately to pay the building cost. Pay $100, flip, get and sell share, pay building cost.


The general rule is
"You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself."

Special abilities are not actions, nor are the deals so the rule does not apply to them.

So, both for special abilities and for deals, the "normal" order is applied. First pay, then get the benefit.

To answer the OP question, you can't flip a train that provides 3 shares and then using one of those shares to pay for the deal.





Can you use shares from the top deal to pay for the bottom deal?
 
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pacemaker 67
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Veronica WYG wrote:
The general rule is
"You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself."
(snip)


So...late in the game, I have $300, one white available worker and 4 trains.

I *choose* trade, but in order to choose trade, I'd prefer an Orange worker. Can I use the presumed money for performing trade to buy a orange worker to make the trade, so that I can then gain the extra $400 (important: NOT needed in order to get the orange worker)? Here I am "claiming" that getting the orange worker is part of the costs of taking the main action.

My gut says no, and the rule book *seems* to say no if the following instructions must be performed in strict order.

Rulebook wrote:

1. Take 1 Worker from your personal supply (next to your Player Board),
2. Place it on one of the 4 action spaces of your Player Board and
3. Perform the depicted main action.


When we are allowed to take some steps out of order, it calls into question whether or not other steps can be taken out of order.
 
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Veronica WYG
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pacemaker67 wrote:
Veronica WYG wrote:
The general rule is
"You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself."
(snip)


So...late in the game, I have $300, one white available worker and 4 trains.

I *choose* trade, but in order to choose trade, I'd prefer an Orange worker. Can I use the presumed money for performing trade to buy a orange worker to make the trade, so that I can then gain the extra $400 (important: NOT needed in order to get the orange worker)? Here I am "claiming" that getting the orange worker is part of the costs of taking the main action.

My gut says no, and the rule book *seems* to say no if the following instructions must be performed in strict order.

Rulebook wrote:


1. Take 1 Worker from your personal supply (next to your Player Board),
2. Place it on one of the 4 action spaces of your Player Board and
3. Perform the depicted main action.


When we are allowed to take some steps out of order, it calls into question whether or not other steps can be taken out of order.


You cannot. The worker must be placed before performing the action.
 
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Veronica WYG
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Shmello50 wrote:
Veronica WYG wrote:
totodona wrote:
duckworp wrote:
Michiel wrote:
duckworp wrote:
These two above replies contradict each other.

Is there an official answer?


I am nothing official, but it can't be anything different than Dylan is saying. You can do the main action and the additional action in any order you want, but you would always first have to pay before you get the benefit. Likewise for the deals. First pay what is required, than get the benefit.


But Joel is saying that the rules state: "if you want to perform an action, but do not have enough money to do so, and an effect of the action allows you to obtain the money, you can resolve that effect first, gain the money, and then pay the cost of the action." Doesn't this imply that you may use the benefit to pay the requirement of the benefit?


To flip a train is not an Action, the Action is to build a Station, to flip a train is an ability of the violet worker that says "Pay $100 to flip a train". First pay then flip. You can choose when to build the station, I mean before or after the flip so you may get shares to sell immediately to pay the building cost. Pay $100, flip, get and sell share, pay building cost.


The general rule is
"You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself."

Special abilities are not actions, nor are the deals so the rule does not apply to them.

So, both for special abilities and for deals, the "normal" order is applied. First pay, then get the benefit.

To answer the OP question, you can't flip a train that provides 3 shares and then using one of those shares to pay for the deal.





Can you use shares from the top deal to pay for the bottom deal?


Yes, that you can do.
 
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Stephan
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Veronica WYG wrote:

The general rule is
"You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself."

Special abilities are not actions, nor are the deals so the rule does not apply to them.

So, both for special abilities and for deals, the "normal" order is applied. First pay, then get the benefit.

To answer the OP question, you can't flip a train that provides 3 shares and then using one of those shares to pay for the deal.


Sorry, I do not understand your explanation...

From my point of view "additional effect" and "special abilities" are just a synonyms for the same thing!
It's both the bonus thing you get when you place a colored worker on an action.
I read this from the rules page 5: "Each Worker always performs the main action, adding an additional effect
depending on its type" and "Therefore, when you place a specialized Worker on your Player Board, you can use it for its own special ability, or
you can use it as a non-specialized Worker and perform a promotion"

With this I apply the general rule "You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect ..." to both!

This then would be allowed:
- place Turquoise worker on telegraph action
- place office
- get shares
- give away two workers
- flip to trains to get 2 times $600
- pay $400

Or this:
- place purple worker on station
- build station (worth $350)
- flip train for 3 shares
- pay the 3 shares (= $450) for the station and the train flip ($350 + $100)




If I'm wrong, then please explain the difference between "additional effect" and "special abilities" with showing an example.

Thanks Stephan


 
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Michiel Hillenius
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Stephan, it is really as clear as Veronica says: first pay, then get the benefit. That goes for a main action as well as for an additional effect.
And basically, the rule of "first pay, then do the (additional) action," is quite logical, isn't it? It is just like any other game that I know (and I know a few :-)). It is just like in real life, when you go to a shop: first pay, then you get the benefit that you paid for. If you cannot pay, then you cannot do the (additional) action. The thing that is special in this game is that you can do the main action and the additional action in any order. But whether it is the main action or the additional action: you have to follow the logical steps: first pay, then get your benefit.
 
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Stephan
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Michiel wrote:
Stephan, it is really as clear as Veronica says: first pay, then get the benefit. That goes for a main action as well as for an additional effect.


Äh... no. Am I stupid?

My rules say
"Effects resolution: You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower
part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself. For example, if
you want to perform an action, but do not have enough money to do so, and an effect of the action allows you to
obtain the money, you can resolve that effect first, gain the money, and then pay the cost of the action."


This is really not what you try to tell me - no "pay first then get benefit" for actions and additional effects.

"Pay first then get benefit" is for the deals.

Open questions... what are the so called "special abilities"? I think they are the same as additional effects (rules page 5 middle & bottom)?
 
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Michiel Hillenius
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I'll reply just once more:
in the example you mention, the effect is the obtaining of money from an additional action. That additional action had no cost. So afterwards you can do the main action with the money obtained.
 
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Edwin Meertens
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Stephan 107 wrote:


My rules say
"Effects resolution: You can resolve the effects of an action (including any additional effect from the lower
part of the action space) in any order, including paying the cost to perform the main action itself."



Veronica WYG wrote:

Special abilities are not actions [...] so the rule does not apply to them.


Those two statements contradict each other. I'm confused. First you can use the lower part of the action space to raise capital for the main action and then you can't. Which one is it?
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Veronica WYG
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I'm sorry the wording is generating confusion. I'll try again

Mixing the order of resolution, and postpone the payment is only allowed for the main action. Therefore, is not allowed to postpone the payment of the cost of the special abilities (additional effect).

So, if the special ability has a cost and a benefit, this cost must be paid before getting the benefit. Then you can use the benefit to pay for the main action.

Example 1 : you perform the action "Railroad" with a grey worker.
The special ability is: take 2 shares.
You can solve the special ability first, getting 2 shares, and then use those two shares to contribute to the payment of the main action.

Example 2 : you perform the action "Build" with a purple worker.
The special ability is: pay $100 to flip a train.
You can solve the special ability first, paying $100 to flip a train (that for example, gives you $600), and then use those $600 to pay the cost of the main action.

What you cannot do is flipping the train first, and then pay $100, because the $100 are not the cost of the main action, so cannot be postponed.

Same is true for the effects of the main action (for example, First Station rewards). If the effect has a cost, that cost must be paid first.
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Edwin Meertens
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Thank you Veronica, that clarifies it for me.
 
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Veronica WYG
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eduart wrote:
Thank you Veronica, that clarifies it for me.


Glad to be of help
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