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Shifting Sands» Forums » Rules

Subject: Permanent elimination question about divisions ? rss

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Robert Ward
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Does anyone know the answer to this question.

Is a division that is eliminated in combat while OOS permantently eliminated ? The division that was eliminated was replaced by a BG which was also eliminated. No retreat was required as everything was lost.

The other know instances of a division being permantly eliminated are;

1) Eliminated and no replacing BG available.
2) Failure to retreat required number of spaces
3) Failure to relocate after overrun
4) OOS in attrition phase.

Thanks.
 
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Andy Daglish
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There's the Poor Morale event, which permanently eliminates after overrun.
 
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Chester
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I thought the answer was, YES, but I may be imposing PoG rules and may not have read it specifically in the rules.
 
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Chester
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Quote:
13.81 Eliminate units that are OOS during the Attrition Phase.
Simultaneously remove both player’s OOS units. The
elimination of an OOS enemy unit cannot open a supply line for
any friendly OOS units. OOS divisions that are eliminated are
permanently removed from the game and may not be recreated
with RP during the Replacement Phase.


I realize this is under "attrition", but if you look at the bold sentence in isolation, it seems adequate to answer the question. It would be nice if it were a bit more clear, since one could argue that the sentence is referring only to the attrition example directly above, but I think the intent is that under ALL circumstances, OOS Divisions eliminated are permamently lost.
 
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Jeffrey D Myers
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"Always rely upon a happy mind alone." Geshe Chekhawa.
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Also note 11.421, which says:

Eliminated divisions and battlegroups are placed in the
player’s Replacement Box. Exceptions: 11.471, 11.473, 11.56,
and 13.81.

So it is still ambiguous to me whether a division eliminated in combat out of supply should go to the replacement box or be permanently eliminated. I've played replacement box, and seem to recall discussion on CSW regarding this, but wasn't able to find a clear reference.

If replacement box is correct, how about a change to the living rules section 11.421 changing "Box" to --Box, regardless of supply status--? Then change 13.81, by changing "eliminated" to --thus eliminated--, making it clear that only attrition is being discussed?
 
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Steve
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I must admit that I read it as OOS divs eliminated, attrition or not, go to permanently eliminated. But, as Cornjob mentioned, my problem may be my automatic pogization of the rules.
 
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Chester
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peacmyer wrote:
Also note 11.421, which says:

Eliminated divisions and battlegroups are placed in the
player’s Replacement Box. Exceptions: 11.471, 11.473, 11.56,
and 13.81.



The other numbers above (except for 13.81) are not pertinent to this question, other than that this passage indicates ALL exceptions to the rule where eliminated Divs go to the Box. There is nowhere else in the Living Rules that addresses this, as far as I've found.

The only issue then is whether the bolded sentence from 13.81 is meant to apply independently to ALL situations, or specifically, only, to the situation of units lots OOS during attrition.

I've played the former, but that's because I was brought up that way (with PoG). I think it makes more sense to me thematically. Why would units OOS who lose a battle be able to refit rather than be captured entirely as opposed to those who are captured without battle? It seems like an inconsistent place to give a benefit to the OOS unit...and would discourage the attacker in a very gamey and nonthematic way.
 
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Steve
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That is very good to know. I have been playing it wrong then. Thanks.

I think the problem and confusion here is the PoG thing and then *also* the odd incentives to try to kill yourself if you're OOS and a division and don't anticipate getting back into supply. It's always odd when you hope that your unit gets destroyed, but there a number of those situations in the PoG system anyway, I suppose (like times when you'd rather retreat 2 than 1 so therefore lose worse so as not to lose armies permanently).
 
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Chester
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This is an easily-overlooked difference from the PoG rules. Thanks for the ruling.
 
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Robert Ward
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My thanks as well Mike.
 
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