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Subject: Ship to ship raiding question rss

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Ryan Wilhite
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This may be answered somewhere else, but I can't find it if it is.

In ship to ship raiding, if the attacker is attacking two ships with his two ships, to what ship is damaged applied or good stolen? Example: red is attacking green's ships. Red wants to attack ship a for a good in its hold. Green uses ship b as the defending flagship. Red rolls the dice and is successful. In the rules, it states that damage or goods are taken from the defending flagship. But...in this example I'm given, does red take from ship b (defending flagship) or ship a (iron goods)?

I've read in other places that in this scenario ship b would be raided even though the defending flagship is ship a.
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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Quote:
In the rules, it states that damage or goods are taken from the defending flagship.


You already answered your own question. Just because you want the iron goods doesn't mean you can ignore the rules
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Aaron Guerra
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Adam is correct. You raid the ship chosen by the defender. The other ship can be a supporting ship but in general is immune to damage and being stolen from.
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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Griffondj wrote:
Adam is correct. You raid the ship chosen by the defender. The other ship can be a supporting ship but in general is immune to damage and being stolen from.


From narrative perspective, I see it as one ship essentially taking a front position and offering combat while the other ship escapes with the goods. The defender can choose to sacrifice a ship this way to protect a more valuable one. Afterwards, however, unless your opponent's ships are faster than yours, you can catch up with and take those iron goods on the next turn (and net two glory over the course of the engagement!)
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Ryan Wilhite
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Thanks all! I sent an email to Rob since I'd received mixed answers on it but for now we'll proceed as suggested here.
 
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Gary G
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No need to involve the Mighty Rob.
I've got this:

Raiding a Ship(Page 18)
You may raid another player's ship in the same space as yours.
A ship is not a dangerous site. The defender picks the flagship.
The defending ship's hold is the defense. Its sail or raid is the garrison
(defender's choice). Support ships add or
remove a die from the raid pool as normal. Add 1 die to the raid
pool if the attacker controls the space. Remove 1 die if the defender controls it.

If you succeed in the raid, you may apply 1 damage to the defending flagship or plunder 1 item from the defending flagship's
hold for each success rolled. Place one enmity token in the defending players
At War With section for each damage given or plunder taken, unless the raid was in a region you control, in which case place exactly one enmity token.




-If could direct us to your mixed answer giver's, we'll correct them also. also.
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John Bedell

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acw6165 wrote:
This may be answered somewhere else, but I can't find it if it is.

In ship to ship raiding, if the attacker is attacking two ships with his two ships, to what ship is damaged applied or good stolen? Example: red is attacking green's ships. Red wants to attack ship a for a good in its hold. Green uses ship b as the defending flagship. Red rolls the dice and is successful. In the rules, it states that damage or goods are taken from the defending flagship. But...in this example I'm given, does red take from ship b (defending flagship) or ship a (iron goods)?

I've read in other places that in this scenario ship b would be raided even though the defending flagship is ship a.


You answered your own question, as highlighted above.
 
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Bill Wallace
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reshurc wrote:
No need to involve the Mighty Rob.
I've got this:

Raiding a Ship(Page 18)
The defender picks the flagship.


We played this as, the defender gets to pick the flagship FOR THE ATTACKER. The text says "raid another player's ship", so I assumed that meant you could choose the ship to attack. And a flagship has to do with an endeavor, and it's the attacking playing making the endeavor.

I wouldn't say this is 100% clear as the rules are written.
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Gary G
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Yah, have heard this complaint before. I just always thought it was common sense....and you haven't even got to the most vague endgame mechanics!
-You attack with 2 of your ships. One geared for Exploring, One for Raiding and you let the Defender pick your Explorer is attacking him? Nah...no sense.


Attacker picks his own Flagship. Defender picks his own Flagship.
 
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Ryan Wilhite
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I think you guys missed my point. I was wondering which defending ship takes damage and is raided. And the rules clearly answer that question.

But as written, the defending flagship, as determined by the defender, is the one that takes damage and/or has its hold raided. There is no ambiguity in the rules. It clearly states that the defender picks the defending flagship and that the defending flagship is the one raided/damaged.

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Darren Nakamura
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http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
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I think I'm still missing your point? Are you all cleared up now or do you still have questions about it?
 
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Dan Montgomery
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acw6165 wrote:
There is no ambiguity in the rules. It clearly states that the defender picks the defending flagship and that the defending flagship is the one raided/damaged.


I wish that's what the rules actually said. Unfortunately it simply says "The defender picks the flagship." This is the very definition of ambiguous, since these are the rules for a type of Raid endeavor and Raid endeavors normally require the raiding player to pick a flagship.
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Michael Albert
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Minor spoiler about late game advisor and ship raiding.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
There is an advisor that gives a bonus to raiding a ship if it contains a relic. If your intension is to raid that ship but the defender picks the other as the flagship and it has no relic on board do you still get to add the bonus?
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j n
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Kitbash wrote:
acw6165 wrote:
There is no ambiguity in the rules. It clearly states that the defender picks the defending flagship and that the defending flagship is the one raided/damaged.


I wish that's what the rules actually said. Unfortunately it simply says "The defender picks the flagship." This is the very definition of ambiguous, since these are the rules for a type of Raid endeavor and Raid endeavors normally require the raiding player to pick a flagship.


You are right that this sentence is ambiguous. You can either read it as an exception to the normal rule that an attacker picks their own attacking flagship (leaving unspecified by the rules who determines the defending flagship), or as a new rule that the defender picks their defending flagship (and let the attacker pick their flagship as normal.

I go with the second both because it's developer confirmed and also because the first leaves yet another ambiguity that you're assuming an answer to.
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Becq
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spriggster wrote:
Minor spoiler about late game advisor and ship raiding.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
There is an advisor that gives a bonus to raiding a ship if it contains a relic. If your intension is to raid that ship but the defender picks the other as the flagship and it has no relic on board do you still get to add the bonus?

We haven't made use of that ability, so I might be misremembering, but doesn't it
Spoiler (click to reveal)
give a raid bonus to you if you have chosen as your flagship a ship that has a relic? If so, that's entirely under your control. If I *am* misremembering, and you get the bonus if the defending flagship has the relic, then the defending player can certainly take that into account when choosing a flagship (but wouldn't be able to shift cargo or relic around to optimize things).
 
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Charles Waterman
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lactamaeon wrote:
Kitbash wrote:
acw6165 wrote:
There is no ambiguity in the rules. It clearly states that the defender picks the defending flagship and that the defending flagship is the one raided/damaged.


I wish that's what the rules actually said. Unfortunately it simply says "The defender picks the flagship." This is the very definition of ambiguous, since these are the rules for a type of Raid endeavor and Raid endeavors normally require the raiding player to pick a flagship.


You are right that this sentence is ambiguous. You can either read it as an exception to the normal rule that an attacker picks their own attacking flagship (leaving unspecified by the rules who determines the defending flagship), or as a new rule that the defender picks their defending flagship (and let the attacker pick their flagship as normal.

I go with the second both because it's developer confirmed and also because the first leaves yet another ambiguity that you're assuming an answer to.


Thanks jn! I've been hunting around though and I can't find where the developer (JR I assume?) has confirmed this. Can you tell me which thread to look at? Thanks!
 
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Charles Waterman
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I'd really still love it if somebody could direct me to where JR or Rob said this! Please?
 
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Chris Willott
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The only logical reading of the rules is that the defender is picking the defending flagship. There is no real-world situation where they would be able to control which attacker engages them.

Here's another houserule option: If both attacker and defender have 2 ships involved, it's possible that the defender could send one ship to intercept the attacking flagship, this would leave the attacking support free to go after the other defender (but of course, without either ship receiving a support bonus, and the stats of the second ship should be used for a completely separate attack, and any advisor bonuses would logically only apply to the flagship).
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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Willottica wrote:
The only logical reading of the rules is that the defender is picking the defending flagship. There is no real-world situation where they would be able to control which attacker engages them.


This. I see that the original wording was ambiguous, but of the two possible interpretations, only one makes any sense at all from a game design perspective. There shouldn't be any debate here.
 
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Colin Marsh
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as much as anything this debate points out just how infrequent it appears to be that people split their ships - it makes you more vulnerable you typically want your ships together to support one another, etc.

if people split their ships regularly i doubt this question would get asked as much as it does.
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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colinmarsh wrote:
as much as anything this debate points out just how infrequent it appears to be that people split their ships - it makes you more vulnerable you typically want your ships together to support one another, etc.

if people split their ships regularly i doubt this question would get asked as much as it does.


Agreed. I think the "support +1" rule forces everyone to keep their ships together all the time for defense and boosted rolls. Many rolls only succeed just barely by 1 or 2 dice. A support ship being present makes all the difference.
 
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