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Subject: An Unexpected Betrayal: Order of steps rss

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Frank Otte
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There is the green Mythos Card of the base game "An Unexpected Betrayal", which forces all investigators with at least one Ally, to loose 3 Health and one Ally (textually combined with an "and" and in this order).

If such an Investigator is defeated by loosing 3 Health, does he still loose an Ally? This is of relevance, because it decides, if all of his Allies are left over in his "Corpse Stack", or if one of his Allies must be discarded.

I am not sure about this, because the Reference Guide says on p. 4: If an investigator is defeated during an encounter or action, he immediately stops resolving that encounter or action. and on the same page: If multiple effects would be resolved at the same time, the active player decides the order in which they are resolved.

On the other hand, the execution of a Mythos Card is neither an encounter nor an action. What do you think?
 
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Kenneth H
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I would say that you lose the ally. It makes sense thematically. (Though I suppose one could argue that the ally is still willing to save the world, just not with the investigator they backstabbed.

If lose 3 health is the first order written on the card, I can see the argument for the other side.

Anyway, the lesson is, allies are jerks and to be avoided at all costs.
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George Aristides
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Hermjard wrote:
There is the green Mythos Card of the base game "An Unexpected Betrayal", which forces all investigators with at least one Ally, to loose 3 Health and one Ally (textually combined with an "and" and in this order).

If such an Investigator is defeated by loosing 3 Health, does he still loose an Ally? This is of relevance, because it decides, if all of his Allies are left over in his "Corpse Stack", or if one of his Allies must be discarded.

I am not sure about this, because the Reference Guide says on p. 4: If an investigator is defeated during an encounter or action, he immediately stops resolving that encounter or action. and on the same page: If multiple effects would be resolved at the same time, the active player decides the order in which they are resolved.

On the other hand, the execution of a Mythos Card is neither an encounter nor an action. What do you think?


I agree with Flamethrower.

I'm a big fan of Charlie Kane, and I dread this Mythos card as it is the cause of a big chunk of my investigator deaths. Charlie starts with 4 health, an ally (the personal assistant) which he would want to keep indefinitely, and usually has better things to do than to spend an action resting if he is down to 3 health....

Same with Akachi and the Other World card where she goes back to the past and has her dad shoot her in the face for 6 damage, but I digress..
 
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M.C.Crispy
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It's not "lose 3 Health, then lose an Ally", it's "lose 3 Health and an Ally", so the losses are both required.

Typically, I regard all effects as atomic: you have to process them in their entirety before you can use an interrupt. So you have to process the effect that causes the losses, then you immediately stop. Mythos effects are (usually) global, so just 'cos one Investigator is defeated, it doesn't mean that you stop processing the effect of the card - it just means that you stop processing for the defeated Investigator. This is why the Ref Guide refers to actions and Encounters, which do affect a single Investigator.
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Frank Otte
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mccrispy wrote:
It's not "lose 3 Health, then lose an Ally", it's "lose 3 Health and an Ally", so the losses are both required.

Typically, I regard all effects as atomic: you have to process them in their entirety before you can use an interrupt. So you have to process the effect that causes the losses, then you immediately stop. Mythos effects are (usually) global, so just 'cos one Investigator is defeated, it doesn't mean that you stop processing the effect of the card - it just means that you stop processing for the defeated Investigator. This is why the Ref Guide refers to actions and Encounters, which do affect a single Investigator.


Typically "and" means, that there is a pair of effects which are unconditional to each other, and which take place in an order of your choice. If you loose 3 Health, when you have only 3 Health, you are defeated - immediately. Because of this, you stop processing for the defeated Investigator, as you yourself write. Of course, the effect continues for the following Investigators. This game does not know "interrupts", except where explicitly mentioned (like a defeated Investigator). By the way, there is a number of Mythos Cards, which do effect only one Investigator (the lead Investigator, for example).
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Hermjard wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
It's not "lose 3 Health, then lose an Ally", it's "lose 3 Health and an Ally", so the losses are both required.

Typically, I regard all effects as atomic: you have to process them in their entirety before you can use an interrupt. So you have to process the effect that causes the losses, then you immediately stop. Mythos effects are (usually) global, so just 'cos one Investigator is defeated, it doesn't mean that you stop processing the effect of the card - it just means that you stop processing for the defeated Investigator. This is why the Ref Guide refers to actions and Encounters, which do affect a single Investigator.


Typically "and" means, that there is a pair of effects which are unconditional to each other, and which take place in an order of your choice. If you loose 3 Health, when you have only 3 Health, you are defeated - immediately. Because of this, you stop processing for the defeated Investigator, as you yourself write. Of course, the effect continues for the following Investigators. This game does not know "interrupts", except where explicitly mentioned (like a defeated Investigator). By the way, there is a number of Mythos Cards, which do effect only one Investigator (the lead Investigator, for example).
So if you "knew" the answer to your own question, why the heck did you post it? I'm not interested in taking part in a "debate" to confirm your preference. If you want the "right" answer and want to save us all the effort, post a question on https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/support/ and post the outcome back here. 

I am aware of the Mythos that affect single Investigators, that's why I added the "(usually)" to my comment
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Frank Otte
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Huh, did I say, that I know the answer to my question? What I did, in my original post and in my later post, was, to present the insight to the problem, which I have up to now, and based on that, an assumption.

But this does not mean, that there might be other facts unknown to me, which could lead to a different conclusion to the problem.

If a user posts here a question together with an assumption, to which you have a different approach, you should expect the possibility, that the OP judges your argument as "weak".

This judgment might be right or wrong. And you could happily blame me for being wrong in my judgment. But to blame someone, only because he deems your words not convincing, might be the wrong reaction.

I am thankful for your contribution to the topic, but my thankfulness does not extent to a point, where I hug all your opinions unquestioned, only because you have spent some time to write your point of view into this thread.

You might have not noticed it, but a significant amount of threads in the rules forums goes about confirming assumptions. And in another significant amount of threads the attempt is made, to disagree to an assumption with incontrovertible, hard facts (and without the mere prompt to contact the publisher support, which is indeed a waste effort to write and read, at least for the people, who know about these possibilities already).
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M.C.Crispy
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You yourself said that the effect is X AND Y and that the interrupt for the Defeat of an Investigator applies in Encounters and Actions. EH is a very literal game - so I'd take it at face value.

You choose to interpret AND as meaning both - in any order, taking the damage first (it's listed first and there's a rule on simultaneity) and invoking the interrupt on Defeat to avoid losing the Ally.

I take the game at face value and invoke the priority of cards over rules to say that you lose both Health AND Ally.

I find your argument unconvincing - hence I provided an alternative. You find my argument unconvincing. There is an impasse. I suggest you ask somebody who knows more than either of us: Nikki, the Designer, is very accessible and responsive. 
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Frank Otte
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So, as far as I can see, the problem can me traced back to three more general questions:

(1) What means "and" in the text of an Eldritch Horror card?

(2) Is the sentence "If an investigator is defeated during an encounter or action, he immediately stops resolving that encounter or action." also applicable to the resolution of mythos cards?

(3) If the answer to (2) is "No", what is the general guideline, when an Investigator is defeated during the resolution of a (mythos) card text?
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Rupert Cullum
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Personally, I would both lose 3 health and one ally. Then the investigator is defeated and you don't go any further down the card if there are other sentences or paragraphs.

Not sure what the official ruling would be, but I don't want to have to start sweating minutiae about the order to resolve "AND" statements to maximize my gain / minimize my loss. In plain English, you do all items in the "AND" statement together.

Just my opinion.
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M.C.Crispy
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Rupertc wrote:
Personally, I would both lose 3 health and one ally. Then the investigator is defeated and you don't go any further down the card if there are other sentences or paragraphs.

Not sure what the official ruling would be, but I don't want to have to start sweating minutiae about the order to resolve "AND" statements to maximize my gain / minimize my loss. In plain English, you do all items in the "AND" statement together.

Just my opinion.
Me too, but I'm afraid that won't be sufficiently convincing for the OP. I really hope he uses the link I provided otherwise he'll never be satisfied.
 
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Le Roux Van Der Vyver
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Hey Frank,

Bad things generally happen in the Mythos phase. The game tries to combine theme and mechanics to give an experience. In this case the people who chose to trust allies got screwed over by their decision. So if you have an ally, lose health and the ally.

Logic: Having an ally is an advantage - game is now punishing those that chose to do this.

I can understand that there may be a language barrier for some, but your English seems fine. To me you are attempting to "game the game" by pulling out an Oxford English Dictionary definition of words here. If you want to do that its fine. Just change all your rolls to 6's whilst your at it. No one will know, its your game.

If you want to know how the designer of the game intended the cards to work, read the first paragraph. The only purpose in the continued debate is to attempt to keep the Ally on the defeated investigator for another one to collect. That Ally betrayed the investigator who is now unconscious, highly doubtful they are now going to assist that investigator's colleague simply because a card contained the word "And".

Furthermore, if we reverse the two, "Lose an Ally and 3 health". Your situation is now resolved. Since simply switching the two terms around can affect your interpretation, but not the one stated in the first paragraph, I would take the least ambiguous result.

Lastly, if we really want to get technical on rules, it states in the Mythos phase that "If the card has the Event trait listed above
the text effect, immediately resolve the
effect and then discard the card"
.

It describes what is happening on your Green Mythos card as an "effect" not "effects". Therefore, the loss of an ally and health are not two separate events that you can pause and then process the defeated investigator inbetween the events. They are in fact one event, to simulate an ally betraying you. Therefore you lose health and the ally, or neither.

Hope that clarifies it to your liking.



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Frank Otte
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Of course I understand the theme behind the card I mentioned. But the attempt to fill rule gaps by a thematic reasoning leads in the best case to the right ruling by chance, in the worst case to defective, inconsistent decisions on a by-case basis. Such attempts in zillions of threads for other game demonstrate this.

So, in my point of view, only the game mechanical approach in connection with rule text analysis is appropriate, to solve an open rules question, and not "theme".

Neither can the answer be: Always choose the worst interpretation. Likewise this can lead to erroneous, arbitrary decisions. And especially for Eldritch Horror, this approach for mythos cards is simply inapplicable, because there are many beneficial mythos cards.

To say, I seek only my personal gain by rules lawyering is pure assumption. Quite the contrary, I clearly said, that I seek a general decision for all "ands" on mythos cards.

And my question is justified: There are many games, where an "and" is exactly interpreted, as I did in my first assumption: As an unconditional sequence of game activities, of which the actor can choose the order. Because of this, it does not help at all, to switch the text in "Lose an Ally and 3 health", by the way.

Many games distinguish for example these wordings (nonexhaustive):

- "do this, to do that": You can only do that, after you have successfully have done this.
- "do this, then do that": You must first to this, and then you do that. You do that even if you have failed to to this.
- "do this and do that": You do this and that, in any order you wish. You do that, even when you fail to do this (and vice versa).

Reference: Dominion, Smash Up, LotR Card Game, Mage Wars, Talisman, Wiz-War, and many, many more.

And I don't think, I have to refer here to the many games, where it is a tricky question, when exactly a player stops doing game actions, when dropping out of the game.

Finally, I come to you last paragraph: "trait listed above the text effect, immediately resolve the effect and then discard the card". This could indeed be a hint, that your interpretation could be right. Good point!

And you will perhaps not believe me, when I say, that meanwhile, we indeed ruled until a final, undoubtful decision, that the text part of a mythos card is an atomic game effect, while the "ands" on other cards are still interpreted by us in the way, I originally mentioned, because this is, according to my experience with math, with game mechanics, with written game rules and with game threads here on BGG, the usual interpretation of "and".
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M.C.Crispy
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Hermjard wrote:
Of course I understand the theme behind the card I mythos cards.

To say, I seek only my personal gain by rules lawyering is pure assumption. Quite the contrary, I clearly said, that I seek a general decision for all "ands" on mythos cards.

And my question is justified: There are many games, where an "and" is exactly interpreted, as I did in my first assumption: As an unconditional sequence of game activities, of which the actor can choose the order. Because of this, it does not help at all, to switch the text in "Lose an Ally and 3 health", by the way.

Many games distinguish for example these wordings (nonexhaustive):

- "do this, to do that": You can only do that, after you have successfully have done this.
- "do this, then do that": You must first to this, and then you do that. You do that even if you have failed to to this.
- "do this and do that": You do this and that, in any order you wish. You do that, even when you fail to do this (and vice versa).

Reference: Dominion, Smash Up, LotR Card Game, Mage Wars, Talisman, Wiz-War, and many, many more.

And I don't think, I have to refer here to the many games, where it is a tricky question, when exactly a player stops doing game actions, when dropping out of the game.

Finally, I come to you last paragraph: "trait listed above the text effect, immediately resolve the effect and then discard the card". This could indeed be a hint, that your interpretation could be right. Good point!

And you will perhaps not believe me, when I say, that meanwhile, we mentioned. But the attempt to fill rule gaps by a thematic reasoning leads in the best case to the right ruling by chance, in the worst case to defective, inconsistent decisions on a by-case basis. Such attempts in zillions of threads for other game demonstrate this.

So, in my point of view, only the game mechanical approach in connection with rule text analysis is appropriate, to solve an open rules question, and not "theme".

Neither can the answer be: Always choose the worst interpretation. Likewise this can lead to erroneous, arbitrary decisions. And especially for Eldritch Horror, this approach for mythos cards is simply inapplicable, because there are many beneficial indeed ruled until a final, undoubtful decision, that the text part of a mythos card is an atomic game effect, while the "ands" on other cards are still interpreted by us in the way, I originally mentioned, because this is, according to my experience with math, with game mechanics, with written game rules and with game threads here on BGG, the usual interpretation of "and".
But have you used the support link that I provided?
 
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