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Subject: New standard for kickstarter? Please God No, just no! rss

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J B
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I'll admit I was originally on the bandwagon for this to be the #1 boardgame ever. Then reality hit me. Everything about this kickstarter is the exact opposite of how I want kickstarters to run. The last thing I want is for companies to see the success of this and model their campaigns after it, because clearly it's the most successful so it has to be right, right?

So let me point out red flags I look for when choosing a kickstarter.

1. Way to many pledges to choose from, too the point it is confusing as all hell to figure out. My first pledge was a $777, took way longer than I care to admit before I realized it didn't include the freaking core game.

2. Cancelled projects, ok this one isn't quite fair. He did refund the money to the backers of the cancelled expansion but... He's now showed he's willing to cancel an expansion. If this happens again what will it mean to all in level backers? Here's $50 back for two cancelled expansions but you're still getting a good deal because of the pinups. This should be discussed somewhere, what if all the new expansions get cancelled can we opt out of the pinups at that point?

3. Stretch goals that allow you to spend more money. This right here is why I didn't back it the first time around. Nothing insults me more in a kickstarter than a stretch goal that unlocks the ability to spend more money.

4. Exploiting your kickstarter to sell your other products. The savings in the big pledges are basically pay kickstarter price for everything and get free stuff that isn't part of the game. It's obvious that the reason he won't cave on standees isn't because he's trying to keep the integrity of the game, it's because the profit margin is freaking huge on those plastics. Anyone that's played any RPGs knows you don't need models to immerse yourself in the game. Point, iirc he was selling core games at gencon without any models.

5. Communication, this has already been beaten to death but it needs repeated. Where to begin, -trolling your customers. The murderer reveal right before a weekend, that was interesting to say the least. Gambling the contents away (potentially) Exploiting the campaign to showcase your Mario map. Dragging the reveals out days and weeks past their unlock. Going radio silent for a week, I don't give a shit if it's the holidays, grab your freaking cell phone like the rest of us, spent 5 minutes and say something, communication can be more then "here's more stuff to buy".

6. PR and community. This is by far the most controversial, aggressive and downright toxic community of any project I've backed. The number of times I've seen people tell other people to basically keep their opinions to themselves and not back the project is atrocious. I've personally abandoned threads and even avoided this forum for days because of some of the people here. I know Posts has an account and have no doubt he's aware of the controversies taking place here and is ignoring every bit of it. Personally I'd be pissed if people were running off my customers. There's clearly an elitist attitude here where people don't want others to have what they have so they can be special.

7. Hiding behind the don't look spoilers ahead. Clearly this is a double edged sword and all we can go on if we don't want spoilers is the ratings, luckily this is the second run of the game. But the legacy concept(I know this isn't but hear me out) is a scary way to hide a shitty game, just look at sea fall.

I know it sounds like I hate everything about this, I don't(well maybe a few unnamed people here) it's been ... Interesting, in fact aside from the radio silence and possibly the gambling on twitch (although I suspect that was all for show) I wouldn't change much. However, I do not under any circumstances want to see more kickstarters run like this, this was and is a mess, yeah I just contradicted myself twice. Deal with it.

In summary, I have been searching for a true epic RPG in a boardgame experience for the last twenty years. Poots claims he was too and that's why he made this, likewise that's why I'm buying. I'm an all in backer and most likely staying that way, luckily I have a firm understanding of what that entails thanks to the many people that have put together spreadsheets of the costs and add-ons.

Well I've vented, flame on
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1. Way to many pledges to choose from, too the point it is confusing as all hell to figure out. My first pledge was a $777, took way longer than I care to admit before I realized it didn't include the freaking core game.

Is to many different pledges a negative though or simply a way of getting closer to what you actually want?

2. Cancelled projects, ok this one isn't quite fair. He did refund the money to the backers of the cancelled expansion but... He's now showed he's willing to cancel an expansion. If this happens again what will it mean to all in level backers? Here's $50 back for two cancelled expansions but you're still getting a good deal because of the pinups. This should be discussed somewhere, what if all the new expansions get cancelled can we opt out of the pinups at that point?

Not really a worry considering the money was refunded.

3. Stretch goals that allow you to spend more money. This right here is why I didn't back it the first time around. Nothing insults me more in a kickstarter than a stretch goal that unlocks the ability to spend more money.

Nobody is forcing you to spend more money, you want more stuff im afraid you have to pay for it.

4. Exploiting your kickstarter to sell your other products. The savings in the big pledges are basically pay kickstarter price for everything and get free stuff that isn't part of the game. It's obvious that the reason he won't cave on standees isn't because he's trying to keep the integrity of the game, it's because the profit margin is freaking huge on those plastics. Anyone that's played any RPGs knows you don't need models to immerse yourself in the game. Point, iirc he was selling core games at gencon without any models.

He was trying to sell them and nobody was buying them. I guess people want the models..

5. Communication, this has already been beaten to death but it needs repeated. Where to begin, -trolling your customers. The murderer reveal right before a weekend, that was interesting to say the least. Gambling the contents away (potentially) Exploiting the campaign to showcase your Mario map. Dragging the reveals out days and weeks past their unlock. Going radio silent for a week, I don't give a shit if it's the holidays, grab your freaking cell phone like the rest of us, spent 5 minutes and say something, communication can be more then "here's more stuff to buy".

over 20 updates to kickstarter and he often answers questions in comments.I dont see a lack of communication nor do i mind him having a bit of fun with the gamblers chest.


6. PR and community. This is by far the most controversial, aggressive and downright toxic community of any project I've backed. The number of times I've seen people tell other people to basically keep their opinions to themselves and not back the project is atrocious. I've personally abandoned threads and even avoided this forum for days because of some of the people here. I know Posts has an account and have no doubt he's aware of the controversies taking place here and is ignoring every bit of it. Personally I'd be pissed if people were running off my customers. There's clearly an elitist attitude here where people don't want others to have what they have so they can be special.

Cant say i have seen this really but if you dont like something then why not speak with your wallet and boycott the kickstarter? Makes sense.

7. Hiding behind the don't look spoilers ahead. Clearly this is a double edged sword and all we can go on if we don't want spoilers is the ratings, luckily this is the second run of the game. But the legacy concept(I know this isn't but hear me out) is a scary way to hide a shitty game, just look at sea fall.

Its is but this isnt Legacy so you dont really have a point..

I know it sounds like I hate everything about this, I don't(well maybe a few unnamed people here) it's been ... Interesting, in fact aside from the radio silence and possibly the gambling on twitch (although I suspect that was all for show) I wouldn't change much. However, I do not under any circumstances want to see more kickstarters run like this, this was and is a mess, yeah I just contradicted myself twice. Deal with it.

I agree its a bit chaotic but 8.6 million, i guess some people must have figured it out.

In summary, I have been searching for a true epic RPG in a boardgame experience for the last twenty years. Poots claims he was too and that's why he made this, likewise that's why I'm buying. I'm an all in backer and most likely staying that way, luckily I have a firm understanding of what that entails thanks to the many people that have put together spreadsheets of the costs and add-ons.

There is a chance you wont like this game, going all in if you havent played it is pretty crazy imo.
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Tyler Bishop
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While I'll agree that there are a lot of elements of this KS that will not work well for others and shouldn't be copied, I've got to say that half of your listed objections seem like you just intentionally being upset at things that I entirely don't understand your objections to, or that you take to seemingly unreasonable levels. I won't try to change your mind on anything specifically, but I'll give some general life advice: you should resist instinctively ascribing to malice that which can be easy explained otherwise.
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Here are my thoughts:

1. Agreed. The pledge levels are confusing and/or redundant.

2. I would 100% rather have him cancel the expansions than deliver something he thinks is inadequate. If you read his reasoning for canceling the Lantern Festival (only 1 out of 13 planned expansions for KS1?) then it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

3. I don't like those stretch goals either, but they are commonplace in the kickstarter world and shouldn't be held against this campaign.

4. To be honest, I don't follow this. Are you talking about the pinups? I would argue that you are wrong about the profit margin being huge for most of the game. It is only huge on the pinups which don't add (much) content and help subsidize the rest of the game to some degree. I have never heard of him selling a version without models.

5. I would agree that Poots isn't the most professional, but not to a point where it is an issue to the campaign. I find the Mario and Twitch involvement to be very interesting additions to what would be otherwise boring reveals. I don't think his updates are paced unreasonably.

6. Maybe I haven't seen the same posts as you. Most seem pretty welcoming and excited. The game, despite the success of the kickstarter, is very niche. I think encouraging people who are having doubts to back off or back down to a core pledge is smart. I've pretty much always seen people encouraging others to pledge for as much as you can now because of the savings over msrp. I'm sure the elitist attitudes are there, but that's true of most things so I probably have been ignoring them. Unless you consider this elitist then idk

7. Pretty much agree. The only caveat is that it IS a kickstarter, so you are pledging based on trust to begin with.
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I sort of agree with 1, only because I believe he could be losing money on some of the pledges which is a terrible idea. That also means he's asking other backers to supplement the cost of those pledges. You're WAY off base on a few others, especially 4 and 6.

2. Don't see this as an issue.

3. I hate when people use this word, but that might be the single most entitled sounding sentence I've read on these forums... He lost money on the first KS and you're complaining that what, he didn't give more free SGs???

4. Adam tried selling mini less copies of the game at gencon, and exactly 3 people bought the game without minis, everyone else bought them and then bought the minis he also had for sale separately (so they bought the entire game). I don't even understand this argument, isn't the point of a business to make a profit, so you're knocking him for trying to sell something and make a profit?

5. It's all just theatrics...

6. Adam does have an account on BGG, but if you think he uses it regularly, or has the time to check out what's going on right now you're again WAY off base. It's also not his job to police BGG's forums, and based of the KS numbers I don't really think he has to worry about customers being run off. You yourself said you're in for everything...
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J B
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gorkel wrote:


2. Cancelled projects, ok this one isn't quite fair. He did refund the money to the backers of the cancelled expansion but... He's now showed he's willing to cancel an expansion. If this happens again what will it mean to all in level backers? Here's $50 back for two cancelled expansions but you're still getting a good deal because of the pinups. This should be discussed somewhere, what if all the new expansions get cancelled can we opt out of the pinups at that point?

Not really a worry considering the money was refunded.



It is a worry for all in pledges because of the ratio of the game content vs non-game content. Making up completely random numbers here.

Lets say the all in is $1,000 and 80% of that is game play and 20% of that is non game play. Let's say 2 - $100 expansions get cancled and $200 is returned to you. Now you're paying $800 for what is now 60% game play and 40% non game play content. (I'm sure my math is wrong but can you see my point?) There's a threshold that I'm willing to put at gameplay vs non-gameplay % of content and a single cancellation could muck that all up.

gorkel wrote:


5. Communication, this has already been beaten to death but it needs repeated. Where to begin, -trolling your customers. The murderer reveal right before a weekend, that was interesting to say the least. Gambling the contents away (potentially) Exploiting the campaign to showcase your Mario map. Dragging the reveals out days and weeks past their unlock. Going radio silent for a week, I don't give a shit if it's the holidays, grab your freaking cell phone like the rest of us, spent 5 minutes and say something, communication can be more then "here's more stuff to buy".

over 20 updates to kickstarter and he often answers questions in comments.I dont see a lack of communication nor do i mind him having a bit of fun with the gamblers chest.



20 isn't that much. I probably received that many in a single day for the Mythic Pantheon kickstarter, albiet they were an extreme in the other direction.

[q="gorkel"]
6. PR and community. This is by far the most controversial, aggressive and downright toxic community of any project I've backed. The number of times I've seen people tell other people to basically keep their opinions to themselves and not back the project is atrocious. I've personally abandoned threads and even avoided this forum for days because of some of the people here. I know Posts has an account and have no doubt he's aware of the controversies taking place here and is ignoring every bit of it. Personally I'd be pissed if people were running off my customers. There's clearly an elitist attitude here where people don't want others to have what they have so they can be special.

Cant say i have seen this really but if you dont like something then why not speak with your wallet and boycott the kickstarter? Makes sense.



Are you trying to be funny? You literally just made my point?

"The number of times I've seen people tell other people to basically keep their opinions to themselves and not back the project is atrocious."

gorkel wrote:

In summary, I have been searching for a true epic RPG in a boardgame experience for the last twenty years. Poots claims he was too and that's why he made this, likewise that's why I'm buying. I'm an all in backer and most likely staying that way, luckily I have a firm understanding of what that entails thanks to the many people that have put together spreadsheets of the costs and add-ons.

There is a chance you wont like this game, going all in if you havent played it is pretty crazy imo.


I agree, and this comes back to the communication bit. We're being kept completely in the dark about what to expect in the future. It's basically if you want something get it now 'cause I have no idea if it will be available ever again.
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Pretty much agreed, madaxer.

If I didn't like the content I have as much as I do, I don't think I'd have backed this due to a fair overlap with the problems you have with it. Since I do, instead I'm getting far less than I might have otherwise.

Points 1 & 3 I think are mostly just facts of KS, and I certainly don't have a problem with add-ons as long as they're neither ridiculously high nor perceived as must-buys (I've seen games where the core is effectively incomplete), and not sure what you're saying with 7.
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Willem Shoo
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Quote:
1. Way to many pledges to choose from, too the point it is confusing as all hell to figure out. My first pledge was a $777, took way longer than I care to admit before I realized it didn't include the freaking core game.


I agree that there's a large amount of pledges listed, and it's a lot to parse. On the other hand, part of me wants to say that if you're going to toss several hundred/thousand dollars at a screen, you owe it to yourself to study the screen in detail anyway. Once I did, there was no confusion for me.

I'm mixed on this though; there's definitely improvements possible here. Less delay in updating the campaign page is the most obvious one for me.

Mixed sentiments on this point.

Quote:
2. Cancelled projects, ok this one isn't quite fair. He did refund the money to the backers of the cancelled expansion but... He's now showed he's willing to cancel an expansion. If this happens again what will it mean to all in level backers? Here's $50 back for two cancelled expansions but you're still getting a good deal because of the pinups. This should be discussed somewhere, what if all the new expansions get cancelled can we opt out of the pinups at that point?


A cancelled expansion would have the price of purchased fully reimbursed. The discount on the pinups is not diminished by this. Are pinups linked to the expansions? Their only practical purpose is representation in the game, and no expansions are needed for that.

I don't follow this point.

Quote:
3. Stretch goals that allow you to spend more money. This right here is why I didn't back it the first time around. Nothing insults me more in a kickstarter than a stretch goal that unlocks the ability to spend more money.


I can't comment on this. I don't doubt the veracity of your sentiment, but I fail to understand understand where the insult lies here.

Quote:
4. Exploiting your kickstarter to sell your other products. The savings in the big pledges are basically pay kickstarter price for everything and get free stuff that isn't part of the game. It's obvious that the reason he won't cave on standees isn't because he's trying to keep the integrity of the game, it's because the profit margin is freaking huge on those plastics. Anyone that's played any RPGs knows you don't need models to immerse yourself in the game. Point, iirc he was selling core games at gencon without any models.


What are the other products here? Models without further game content? I can't even agree that those are unrelated products; calling them exploitative is a huge reach in my opinion.

I've seen the modelless core games addressed several times, and am unwilling to dig it up again. Suffice to say that they were factory defects, and almost entirely neglected for the regular version.

Quote:
5. Communication, this has already been beaten to death but it needs repeated. Where to begin, -trolling your customers. The murderer reveal right before a weekend, that was interesting to say the least. Gambling the contents away (potentially) Exploiting the campaign to showcase your Mario map. Dragging the reveals out days and weeks past their unlock. Going radio silent for a week, I don't give a shit if it's the holidays, grab your freaking cell phone like the rest of us, spent 5 minutes and say something, communication can be more then "here's more stuff to buy".


I disagree on several counts - don't mind the Mario map or the holiday break at all, for instance - but overall I cannot fault you for some irritation. Poots's style of communication is chaotic at best. I'm quite alright with it, but completely understand why you wouldn't be.

Quote:
6. PR and community. This is by far the most controversial, aggressive and downright toxic community of any project I've backed. The number of times I've seen people tell other people to basically keep their opinions to themselves and not back the project is atrocious. I've personally abandoned threads and even avoided this forum for days because of some of the people here. I know Posts has an account and have no doubt he's aware of the controversies taking place here and is ignoring every bit of it. Personally I'd be pissed if people were running off my customers. There's clearly an elitist attitude here where people don't want others to have what they have so they can be special.


Completely disagreed. I'm not commenting on anyone's behaviour on this forum; I'm just saying Poots doesn't have anything to do with them. This isn't his forum.

Quote:
7. Hiding behind the don't look spoilers ahead. Clearly this is a double edged sword and all we can go on if we don't want spoilers is the ratings, luckily this is the second run of the game. But the legacy concept(I know this isn't but hear me out) is a scary way to hide a shitty game, just look at sea fall.


I don't know what these sentences mean. No blame on you, I often have trouble parsing what someone means, but I don't understand.


I can see why you wouldn't want another kickstarter to be run like this - mostly because of point 5 - but I don't really follow you on the other points, and I often don't see where they would be deleterious for a kickstarter.
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John Middleton
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Sounds like you should not back this game and do something else.


Given the funding level and success of the campaign so far, many people do not share your complaints.
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Popularity doesn't invalidate concerns.
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madaxer wrote:
I'll admit I was originally on the bandwagon for this to be the #1 boardgame ever. Then reality hit me. Everything about this kickstarter is the exact opposite of how I want kickstarters to run. The last thing I want is for companies to see the success of this and model their campaigns after it, because clearly it's the most successful so it has to be right, right?

So let me point out red flags I look for when choosing a kickstarter.

1. Way to many pledges to choose from, too the point it is confusing as all hell to figure out. My first pledge was a $777, took way longer than I care to admit before I realized it didn't include the freaking core game.

2. Cancelled projects, ok this one isn't quite fair. He did refund the money to the backers of the cancelled expansion but... He's now showed he's willing to cancel an expansion. If this happens again what will it mean to all in level backers? Here's $50 back for two cancelled expansions but you're still getting a good deal because of the pinups. This should be discussed somewhere, what if all the new expansions get cancelled can we opt out of the pinups at that point?

3. Stretch goals that allow you to spend more money. This right here is why I didn't back it the first time around. Nothing insults me more in a kickstarter than a stretch goal that unlocks the ability to spend more money.

4. Exploiting your kickstarter to sell your other products. The savings in the big pledges are basically pay kickstarter price for everything and get free stuff that isn't part of the game. It's obvious that the reason he won't cave on standees isn't because he's trying to keep the integrity of the game, it's because the profit margin is freaking huge on those plastics. Anyone that's played any RPGs knows you don't need models to immerse yourself in the game. Point, iirc he was selling core games at gencon without any models.

5. Communication, this has already been beaten to death but it needs repeated. Where to begin, -trolling your customers. The murderer reveal right before a weekend, that was interesting to say the least. Gambling the contents away (potentially) Exploiting the campaign to showcase your Mario map. Dragging the reveals out days and weeks past their unlock. Going radio silent for a week, I don't give a shit if it's the holidays, grab your freaking cell phone like the rest of us, spent 5 minutes and say something, communication can be more then "here's more stuff to buy".

6. PR and community. This is by far the most controversial, aggressive and downright toxic community of any project I've backed. The number of times I've seen people tell other people to basically keep their opinions to themselves and not back the project is atrocious. I've personally abandoned threads and even avoided this forum for days because of some of the people here. I know Posts has an account and have no doubt he's aware of the controversies taking place here and is ignoring every bit of it. Personally I'd be pissed if people were running off my customers. There's clearly an elitist attitude here where people don't want others to have what they have so they can be special.

7. Hiding behind the don't look spoilers ahead. Clearly this is a double edged sword and all we can go on if we don't want spoilers is the ratings, luckily this is the second run of the game. But the legacy concept(I know this isn't but hear me out) is a scary way to hide a shitty game, just look at sea fall.

I know it sounds like I hate everything about this, I don't(well maybe a few unnamed people here) it's been ... Interesting, in fact aside from the radio silence and possibly the gambling on twitch (although I suspect that was all for show) I wouldn't change much. However, I do not under any circumstances want to see more kickstarters run like this, this was and is a mess, yeah I just contradicted myself twice. Deal with it.

In summary, I have been searching for a true epic RPG in a boardgame experience for the last twenty years. Poots claims he was too and that's why he made this, likewise that's why I'm buying. I'm an all in backer and most likely staying that way, luckily I have a firm understanding of what that entails thanks to the many people that have put together spreadsheets of the costs and add-ons.

Well I've vented, flame on

Couldn't agree more!
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Can you give an example of a KS you like? This is definitely one of the better ones I have seen (been backing since 2011). The game exists in the world so there is nothing to hide, and Poots isn't trying to pull backers with limited exclusives (other than a t-shirt).
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
Popularity doesn't invalidate concerns.



Success invalidates groundless complaints.
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DegenerateElite wrote:
Sounds like you should not back this game and do something else.


Given the funding level and success of the campaign so far, many people do not share your complaints.


Keep in mind over $5 million in pledges are early birds, people sit in those until the end just in case regardless. Add to that many people have multiple accounts with multiple early birds because they haven't made a decision on which to get.

I'm not implying this won't be hugely successful just starting a fact alot of those pledges were placed optimistically. I for one went all in when it was valued at less than half of the cost just like thousands of other backers. If he didn't reveal any more content after day two until the end of the campaign, I can safely say everyone of those would have dropped. In fact of be surprised to see the $2k backers stick around if nothing else gets revealed/added on. But I digress, I've gotten off topic.
 
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madaxer wrote:
I'll admit I was...

5. Communication, this has already been beaten to death but it needs repeated. Where to begin, -trolling your customers. The murderer reveal right before a weekend, that was interesting to say the least. Gambling the contents away (potentially) Exploiting the campaign to showcase your Mario map. Dragging the reveals out days and weeks past their unlock. Going radio silent for a week, I don't give a shit if it's the holidays, grab your freaking cell phone like the rest of us, spent 5 minutes and say something, communication can be more then "here's more stuff to buy".

Well I've vented, flame on


This is just great. The whole thing. Just great post. 5 made me laugh loudly.



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Whining in the original post aside, one point I don't see made here is how the miniature-less version sold at GenCON this year was not even remotely a fair test. This was not something that was advertised ahead of time -- maybe it was mentioned somewhere once, but I hadn't heard of it and I was paying semi-decent attention to the game at the time and to my knowledge it hadn't been announced prior. Meaning, everyone in that line was in that line with the understanding that they would be exchanging $400 USD for the regular version of KD:M. That's what they had lined up to buy and what they were mentally decided on. It shouldn't surprise anyone that very few people changed their mind when presented with another option.

The population of people who would buy the regular, stock $400 USD version of KD:M is a different population of people than those who would buy a miniature-less $100 USD version of KD:M. The line was filled with the latter population, and isn't a fair test of how a miniature-less version of KD:M would fare in the market at all.
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madaxer wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
Sounds like you should not back this game and do something else.


Given the funding level and success of the campaign so far, many people do not share your complaints.


Keep in mind over $5 million in pledges are early birds, people sit in those until the end just in case regardless. Add to that many people have multiple accounts with multiple early birds because they haven't made a decision on which to get.

I'm not implying this won't be hugely successful just starting a fact alot of those pledges were placed optimistically. I for one went all in when it was valued at less than half of the cost just like thousands of other backers. If he didn't reveal any more content after day two until the end of the campaign, I can safely say everyone of those would have dropped. In fact of be surprised to see the $2k backers stick around if nothing else gets revealed/added on. But I digress, I've gotten off topic.



As soon as those early birds drop others will pick them up.

And I don't see many dropping regardless.

If anything, the majority of questions on BGG with regard to this game are about what else to buy.
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madaxer wrote:
I'll admit I was originally on the bandwagon for this to be the #1 boardgame ever. Then reality hit me. Everything about this kickstarter is the exact opposite of how I want kickstarters to run. The last thing I want is for companies to see the success of this and model their campaigns after it, because clearly it's the most successful so it has to be right, right?

So let me point out red flags I look for when choosing a kickstarter.

1. Way to many pledges to choose from, too the point it is confusing as all hell to figure out. My first pledge was a $777, took way longer than I care to admit before I realized it didn't include the freaking core game.

2. Cancelled projects, ok this one isn't quite fair. He did refund the money to the backers of the cancelled expansion but... He's now showed he's willing to cancel an expansion. If this happens again what will it mean to all in level backers? Here's $50 back for two cancelled expansions but you're still getting a good deal because of the pinups. This should be discussed somewhere, what if all the new expansions get cancelled can we opt out of the pinups at that point?

3. Stretch goals that allow you to spend more money. This right here is why I didn't back it the first time around. Nothing insults me more in a kickstarter than a stretch goal that unlocks the ability to spend more money.

4. Exploiting your kickstarter to sell your other products. The savings in the big pledges are basically pay kickstarter price for everything and get free stuff that isn't part of the game. It's obvious that the reason he won't cave on standees isn't because he's trying to keep the integrity of the game, it's because the profit margin is freaking huge on those plastics. Anyone that's played any RPGs knows you don't need models to immerse yourself in the game. Point, iirc he was selling core games at gencon without any models.

5. Communication, this has already been beaten to death but it needs repeated. Where to begin, -trolling your customers. The murderer reveal right before a weekend, that was interesting to say the least. Gambling the contents away (potentially) Exploiting the campaign to showcase your Mario map. Dragging the reveals out days and weeks past their unlock. Going radio silent for a week, I don't give a shit if it's the holidays, grab your freaking cell phone like the rest of us, spent 5 minutes and say something, communication can be more then "here's more stuff to buy".

6. PR and community. This is by far the most controversial, aggressive and downright toxic community of any project I've backed. The number of times I've seen people tell other people to basically keep their opinions to themselves and not back the project is atrocious. I've personally abandoned threads and even avoided this forum for days because of some of the people here. I know Posts has an account and have no doubt he's aware of the controversies taking place here and is ignoring every bit of it. Personally I'd be pissed if people were running off my customers. There's clearly an elitist attitude here where people don't want others to have what they have so they can be special.

7. Hiding behind the don't look spoilers ahead. Clearly this is a double edged sword and all we can go on if we don't want spoilers is the ratings, luckily this is the second run of the game. But the legacy concept(I know this isn't but hear me out) is a scary way to hide a shitty game, just look at sea fall.

I know it sounds like I hate everything about this, I don't(well maybe a few unnamed people here) it's been ... Interesting, in fact aside from the radio silence and possibly the gambling on twitch (although I suspect that was all for show) I wouldn't change much. However, I do not under any circumstances want to see more kickstarters run like this, this was and is a mess, yeah I just contradicted myself twice. Deal with it.

In summary, I have been searching for a true epic RPG in a boardgame experience for the last twenty years. Poots claims he was too and that's why he made this, likewise that's why I'm buying. I'm an all in backer and most likely staying that way, luckily I have a firm understanding of what that entails thanks to the many people that have put together spreadsheets of the costs and add-ons.

Well I've vented, flame on



Your concerns, taken one by one, are debatable (I have some objections) but they are never wrong.
Overall, I think you are right.
It is a demonstration by accumulation.

Poots has a free pass around here, that's not a secret.
People are willing to give him an unlimited credit and there are some reasons for that.
I would too in certain circumstances.
But not that many times for so many topics.
Objectivity is the key but you won't find it that much around here because people are emotional about it (it's irritating but totally understandable if you look back and see how this game came to life).

And about the community, that's true.
There are a lot of fanboys loving Poots like some would love a Rock Star. These guys are the watchdogs. Avoid them as much as you can because they are sticky and sometimes they even bite.
There are some people who think they are part of an elite by having this game. They are ok as long as you don't say that the game is not worth the money or that the components are not always top notch. If you do, they will eat you alive.
And there are a bunch of cool guys too. A lot.

These three poles will be emphasized in the years to come because some of the 16000 backers only know the game for 3 weeks and are already worshiping the guy, some will think they are part of a club because they paid around 2000$ for this game and some are just more nice guys who will join the party.
That won't change, it will be just more of the same thing.

This game is cool but everything else is just business and attitudes wrapped in some shiny and arty paper.

I am an apple user and I never cared much about Steve jobs.
I am a KD:M owner and I never cared much about Adam Poots.
I know they made something different but what I care about is the final product.
Both products have issues, both companies have a debatable way to sell their products, both have a nightmarish customer service and both are fanboys/elitists magnets too.

There is a thread around here where the topic is basically: "I love Poots so much I would die for him, if you love him too, just clap your hands with me". And people responded positively.
I'm exaggerating but really not that much.
That's the level we are talking about sometimes.

Everything about this game is borderline. Participating to this KS and posting in this forum is accepting to deal with this for the best and for the worst.
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As some one that watches and partipacites in the twitch channel before the ks, and talk to the streamers on discord almost daily, the gambles with twitch were not staged or known about till poots tweeted them.
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Khift wrote:
Whining in the original post aside, one point I don't see made here is how the miniature-less version sold at GenCON this year was not even remotely a fair test. This was not something that was advertised ahead of time -- maybe it was mentioned somewhere once, but I hadn't heard of it and I was paying semi-decent attention to the game at the time and to my knowledge it hadn't been announced prior. Meaning, everyone in that line was in that line with the understanding that they would be exchanging $400 USD for the regular version of KD:M. That's what they had lined up to buy and what they were mentally decided on. It shouldn't surprise anyone that very few people changed their mind when presented with another option.

The population of people who would buy the regular, stock $400 USD version of KD:M is a different population of people who would buy a miniature-less $100 USD version of KD:M. The line was filled with the latter population, and isn't a fair test of how a miniature-less version of KD:M would fare in the market at all.

Ummmm... What??? No... The reason that line was filled with people who want miniatures in their game is because the "population" of people interested in the game at all want miniatures in that game. Other than a few people there hasn't been a huge out cry for a miniatureless game. In other words, the reason the line's "population" didn't contain people who want a miniatureless game, is because they don't exist...
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DegenerateElite wrote:
madaxer wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
Sounds like you should not back this game and do something else.


Given the funding level and success of the campaign so far, many people do not share your complaints.


Keep in mind over $5 million in pledges are early birds, people sit in those until the end just in case regardless. Add to that many people have multiple accounts with multiple early birds because they haven't made a decision on which to get.

I'm not implying this won't be hugely successful just starting a fact alot of those pledges were placed optimistically. I for one went all in when it was valued at less than half of the cost just like thousands of other backers. If he didn't reveal any more content after day two until the end of the campaign, I can safely say everyone of those would have dropped. In fact of be surprised to see the $2k backers stick around if nothing else gets revealed/added on. But I digress, I've gotten off topic.



As soon as those early birds drop others will pick them up.

And I don't see many dropping regardless.

If anything, the majority of questions on BGG with regard to this game are about what else to buy.

Yeah that comment is comical and just shows either the OP is a troll, or just doesn't know much about KS. "if there were no stretch goals, or add ons to the 'all add on' pledges then people would end up dropping them!". You don't say??? Well it's a good thing Adam added addons for the 'all addons' pledges huh??? If you think this project will do anything other than increase funding in the final 48 hrs then you just don't know what you're talking about. At the end of the day what this project proves is that it doesn't matter how you run your project if you have a really good product. If the OP isn't emotionally capable of handling the way this project is run, then he probably should just avoid it and other projects run similarly...

In the famous words of Doc Holliday "Poor soul, you're just too high strung".
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I agree with maybe half of your initial points, but I think posting them here is probably pointless. The primary readership is going to be people who like this game/campaign, and probably haven't spent a whole lot of time critically analyzing Kickstarter best practices, and/or who have not spent any time interacting with the KS designer/publisher community during those peoples' KS prep phases (which is where the best practices are developed and discussed...Poots, from what I've seen, is not involved in that community either). That's going to lead to conflating success with a well run campaign, which this certainly isn't regardless of money raised: this is a case of the game propelling itself forward, rather than success as a result of exceptional campaign management and project page standards.
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Anyone who can call the KD:M community toxic hasn't actually been in a toxic community.
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Nevertellmetheodds wrote:
Khift wrote:
Whining in the original post aside, one point I don't see made here is how the miniature-less version sold at GenCON this year was not even remotely a fair test. This was not something that was advertised ahead of time -- maybe it was mentioned somewhere once, but I hadn't heard of it and I was paying semi-decent attention to the game at the time and to my knowledge it hadn't been announced prior. Meaning, everyone in that line was in that line with the understanding that they would be exchanging $400 USD for the regular version of KD:M. That's what they had lined up to buy and what they were mentally decided on. It shouldn't surprise anyone that very few people changed their mind when presented with another option.

The population of people who would buy the regular, stock $400 USD version of KD:M is a different population of people who would buy a miniature-less $100 USD version of KD:M. The line was filled with the latter population, and isn't a fair test of how a miniature-less version of KD:M would fare in the market at all.

Ummmm... What??? No... The reason that line was filled with people who want miniatures in their game is because the "population" of people interested in the game at all want miniatures in that game. Other than a few people there hasn't been a huge out cry for a miniatureless game. In other words, the reason the line's "population" didn't contain people who want a miniatureless game, is because they don't exist...
I'm curious -- if Poots had decided to sell sides of steak at his booth without letting anyone know this and nobody bought it because they were lined up to buy KD:M and not a steak dinner, would you then conclude that nobody in the world likes steak?
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Khift wrote:
Nevertellmetheodds wrote:
Khift wrote:
Whining in the original post aside, one point I don't see made here is how the miniature-less version sold at GenCON this year was not even remotely a fair test. This was not something that was advertised ahead of time -- maybe it was mentioned somewhere once, but I hadn't heard of it and I was paying semi-decent attention to the game at the time and to my knowledge it hadn't been announced prior. Meaning, everyone in that line was in that line with the understanding that they would be exchanging $400 USD for the regular version of KD:M. That's what they had lined up to buy and what they were mentally decided on. It shouldn't surprise anyone that very few people changed their mind when presented with another option.

The population of people who would buy the regular, stock $400 USD version of KD:M is a different population of people who would buy a miniature-less $100 USD version of KD:M. The line was filled with the latter population, and isn't a fair test of how a miniature-less version of KD:M would fare in the market at all.

Ummmm... What??? No... The reason that line was filled with people who want miniatures in their game is because the "population" of people interested in the game at all want miniatures in that game. Other than a few people there hasn't been a huge out cry for a miniatureless game. In other words, the reason the line's "population" didn't contain people who want a miniatureless game, is because they don't exist...
I'm curious -- if Poots had decided to sell sides of steak at his booth without letting anyone know this and nobody bought it because they were lined up to buy KD:M and not a steak dinner, would you then conclude that nobody in the world likes steak?
If you think that is equivalence, then I don't think you will ever understand why there won't be a miniatureless version.

The point has never been that people don't want a miniatureless version, it is that not enough people want it to make it worthwhile to have as a separate thing.
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