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Terraforming Mars» Forums » Rules

Subject: Placing greenery when victory tracks maxed out rss

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DOUGLAS BRUNDIN
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We ran into a situation where the victory tracks were maxed out but we had not triggered the post end of game final production phase.

If it's a normal game turn and you want to place a greenery tile or trigger a card effect but doing so would require you to raise a victory track ABOVE ITS MAX LEVEL (it's already maxed out), can you perform that action?

Also, if the answer is YES you can place greenery or trigger card effects, do you increase your Terraforming Rating if, for example, you place a greenery but the O2 track was already maxed out. Therefore, because you can't technically raise the O2 level any further, maybe you do NOT get to increase the TR track?

This is a technical question but our game was very tight and even a few points could have changed the game outcome.
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DOUGLAS BRUNDIN
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Another example would be:

I wanted to play a card that would, among other things, increase the temperature track 2 clicks and then give me other bonuses.

1. Can I play that card if I can't technically raise the temp any higher?
2. If so, if I don't actually raise the temp, do I earn the +2 TR POINTS on the scoring track like I normally would for raising the temp?
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Scott Ross Spurgeon
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Assuming a track is at its maximum.... placing a greenery tile gives the game-end points but not the O2 track increase or the TR increase (the O2 track is a race track) - the same goes for the temperature track and the Ocean tiles... that is, you can play a card that gains you less than the possibilities.

If you cannot move the marker on the track (O2 or temp) or place an Ocean tile, then you cannot gain the TR increase.

hope this helps
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DOUGLAS BRUNDIN
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The rules seem clear that you must meet all the requirements on a card in order to play it. For example if a card says "pay 10 and lower your energy production 2 points and then gain 2 plants"

1. If your energy track is at zero or one, can you play this card? It seems like you couldn't play it because the card specifies that you must reduce your energy track two points but you don't have the ability to do that.
2. So why can you play a card that would cause a track to go above its maximum? It seems that this would prevent you from playing the card, similar to example#1
3. Using your example about ocean tiles, if a card effect tells you to take an ocean tile as part of its effect, but there are no ocean tiles left, can you even play that card at all? I agree you couldn't score the TR but that's more because you couldn't play the card at all and therefore wouldn't place the ocean tile at all.
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Vergililus De Kat
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You *must* be able to perform the cards effect.
But there are 3 exceptions to this rule:
1) if a global parameter cannot be performed (fully), you can play the card.
This means oxygen,oceans and temperature.
2) if you have to remove red bordered resources (mostly plants). If an asteroid card removes 4 plants and you can only remove 2 plants from another player you are allowed to play that card.
3) if a card gives you resources you can't collect. F.e. if you get microbes or animals, but you don't have a card to collect them on, you can still play that card.
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Darcy Dueck
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The rules specifically allow you to play a card which increases a global parameter when the parameter is at its maximum value. No TR is earned if a global parameter is at its maximum value.

Also, you may play a card that earns you a resource even if you have no place to collect that resource. The card's other effects happen but no resource will be collected.
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Danny Perello
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Dbrundin wrote:
The rules seem clear that you must meet all the requirements on a card in order to play it. For example if a card says "pay 10 and lower your energy production 2 points and then gain 2 plants"

1. If your energy track is at zero or one, can you play this card? It seems like you couldn't play it because the card specifies that you must reduce your energy track two points but you don't have the ability to do that.
2. So why can you play a card that would cause a track to go above its maximum? It seems that this would prevent you from playing the card, similar to example#1

You seem to be confusing requirements with rewards, which is a little pedantic and reasonable to mix up.

A requirement is something you must pay/lose/have a minimum of to play a card, and a reward is something you get after the card is played. You cannot play a card if you can't pay all its costs, but you can play a card if you can't reap all its rewards.

Hope that makes sense...
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H-B-G
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Relax wrote:
Dbrundin wrote:
The rules seem clear that you must meet all the requirements on a card in order to play it. For example if a card says "pay 10 and lower your energy production 2 points and then gain 2 plants"

1. If your energy track is at zero or one, can you play this card? It seems like you couldn't play it because the card specifies that you must reduce your energy track two points but you don't have the ability to do that.
2. So why can you play a card that would cause a track to go above its maximum? It seems that this would prevent you from playing the card, similar to example#1

You seem to be confusing requirements with rewards, which is a little pedantic and reasonable to mix up.

A requirement is something you must pay/lose/have a minimum of to play a card, and a reward is something you get after the card is played. You cannot play a card if you can't pay all its costs, but you can play a card if you can't reap all its rewards.

Hope that makes sense...


This is not quite true. If the card allows the placement of a tile as part of its reward (with the exception of an ocean tile which represents a global parameter) then you must be able to place the tile or you can't play the card.

Note that the rules do list playing a tile amongst the exceptions, but the designer has confirmed that that is incorrect and should have been removed before the final printing.
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DOUGLAS BRUNDIN
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Vergilius wrote:
You *must* be able to perform the cards effect.
But there are 3 exceptions to this rule:
1) if a global parameter cannot be performed (fully), you can play the card.
This means oxygen,oceans and temperature.
2) if you have to remove red bordered resources (mostly plants). If an asteroid card removes 4 plants and you can only remove 2 plants from another player you are allowed to play that card.
3) if a card gives you resources you can't collect. F.e. if you get microbes or animals, but you don't have a card to collect them on, you can still play that card.


Does anyone disagree with Vergilius? If so please cite the rules.
 
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Christian Naesseth
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Dbrundin wrote:
Vergilius wrote:
You *must* be able to perform the cards effect.
But there are 3 exceptions to this rule:
1) if a global parameter cannot be performed (fully), you can play the card.
This means oxygen,oceans and temperature.
2) if you have to remove red bordered resources (mostly plants). If an asteroid card removes 4 plants and you can only remove 2 plants from another player you are allowed to play that card.
3) if a card gives you resources you can't collect. F.e. if you get microbes or animals, but you don't have a card to collect them on, you can still play that card.


Does anyone disagree with Vergilius? If so please cite the rules.

What Vergilius said is correct, it is explained clearly in the rulebook page 9, section A) 1) paragraphs 2-5.
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Jaime D.
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Vergilius wrote:
You *must* be able to perform the cards effect.
But there are 3 exceptions to this rule:
1) if a global parameter cannot be performed (fully), you can play the card.
This means oxygen,oceans and temperature.
2) if you have to remove red bordered resources (mostly plants). If an asteroid card removes 4 plants and you can only remove 2 plants from another player you are allowed to play that card.
3) if a card gives you resources you can't collect. F.e. if you get microbes or animals, but you don't have a card to collect them on, you can still play that card.


To the best of my understanding, this is correct.
 
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Vergililus De Kat
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In our gaming group I'm usually the designated-rules-explaining-person

And I've thaught Terraforming Mars to 11 people, so by now I've got the rules explaining bit of the game going smoothly arrrh
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Odyzeus Longbow
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On a side note, if you need to reduce resource production, even if it's from any player (red border) you must be able to pay the price to play that card.
Unlike resources, resource production is never optional.
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Annemarie Post
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newsaidin wrote:
On a side note, if you need to reduce resource production, even if it's from any player (red border) you must be able to pay the price to play that card.
Unlike resources, resource production is never optional.


For your own production, that's true. But is it for other players? I know that for taking away goods the cards say 'up to x', but is this the same for production?
 
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H-B-G
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Anny48 wrote:
newsaidin wrote:
On a side note, if you need to reduce resource production, even if it's from any player (red border) you must be able to pay the price to play that card.
Unlike resources, resource production is never optional.


For your own production, that's true. But is it for other players? I know that for taking away goods the cards say 'up to x', but is this the same for production?


According to page 15 of the rules

Quote:
A card effct that reduces production of a redbordered resource must be performed, so if your opponent doesn’t have that production, then you must lower your own production or not play the card at all.


I suppose that you could decline to reduce your opponent's production and choose to take the reduction yourself (if possible), but it's not something I would do.
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Annemarie Post
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DaveD wrote:
Anny48 wrote:
newsaidin wrote:
On a side note, if you need to reduce resource production, even if it's from any player (red border) you must be able to pay the price to play that card.
Unlike resources, resource production is never optional.


For your own production, that's true. But is it for other players? I know that for taking away goods the cards say 'up to x', but is this the same for production?


According to page 15 of the rules

Quote:
A card effct that reduces production of a redbordered resource must be performed, so if your opponent doesn’t have that production, then you must lower your own production or not play the card at all.


I suppose that you could decline to reduce your opponent's production and choose to take the reduction yourself (if possible), but it's not something I would do.


Thanks! I missed that.
 
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