Grand Admiral Thrawn
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(Apologies if this puts up a firewall.)

Though I don't agree with all its conclusions, I thought it was a decent article. They make this argument every year. It's part of their editorial stance.

"FOR a certain kind of liberal, 2016 stands as a rebuke. If you believe, as The Economist does, in open economies and open societies, where the free exchange of goods, capital, people and ideas is encouraged and where universal freedoms are protected from state abuse by the rule of law, then this has been a year of setbacks. Not just over Brexit and the election of Donald Trump, but also the tragedy of Syria, abandoned to its suffering, and widespread support—in Hungary, Poland and beyond—for “illiberal democracy”. As globalisation has become a slur, nationalism, and even authoritarianism, have flourished. In Turkey relief at the failure of a coup was overtaken by savage (and popular) reprisals. In the Philippines voters chose a president who not only deployed death squads but bragged about pulling the trigger. All the while Russia, which hacked Western democracy, and China, which just last week set out to taunt America by seizing one of its maritime drones, insist liberalism is merely a cover for Western expansion.

Faced with this litany, many liberals (of the free-market sort) have lost their nerve..."

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21712128-liberals-lost...
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Mike Stiles
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Economist wrote:
But only if liberalism can deal with its other problem: the loss of faith in progress.


Just a great letter. I thought the quoted line really hit it home; To many people have lost (or never had) faith in progress and want to turn it back, let alone resiting going forward.
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Trey Chambers
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Trump's win was a victory for fascism and authoritarianism. No centrist Republican, any Democrat, liberal of any stripe, or libertarian should be happy about it. Only Tea Party crazies and Neocons should be happy about Trump's win. And Russia.
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Mike Stiles
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At risk of the derail getting worse (and in Trey's defense), it is worth noting that Trump has on occasion called for his political opponents and the press to be jailed, and also has private bodyguards that (in one famous case) on film punching a guy out.

It seems like they're 1 bottle of castor oil away, really.
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Trey Chambers
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windsagio wrote:
At risk of the derail getting worse (and in Trey's defense), it is worth noting that Trump has on occasion called for his political opponents and the press to be jailed, and also has private bodyguards that (in one famous case) on film punching a guy out.

It seems like they're 1 bottle of castor oil away, really.


Don't forget he's also talked about censoring the press and fighting against election results (if he had lost).
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Cleric By Dinnertime
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Shampoo4you wrote:
windsagio wrote:
At risk of the derail getting worse (and in Trey's defense), it is worth noting that Trump has on occasion called for his political opponents and the press to be jailed, and also has private bodyguards that (in one famous case) on film punching a guy out.

It seems like they're 1 bottle of castor oil away, really.


Don't forget he's also talked about censoring the press and fighting against election results (if he had lost).


All correct statements. The free speech one really frustrates me. But is he really the next Hitler or Stalin reincarnate like the press is making him out to be? No, not at all. The more dems use hyperbolic speech to try to prove their point, the more they sound like they're crying wolf. That's really bad cause when PE Trump does screw up, I'd like everyone to be on the same page and call him out on it. But when dems make everything he does a big deal (like complaining after every one of his cabinet picks. Who cares? Name me one of Mr. Obama's cabinet picks besides one of the 3 famous ones. Can't? Cause they don't matter. Obama's the one in charge), it makes it really difficult not to root PE Trump on no matter what he does just to spite the left. Best example I can think of is the fact that the same rhetoric used for PE Trump was also used for Romney, a relatively normal, relatively qualified guy. But Romney's foreign policies were "stuck in the 80's", he wanted to put all the black people back in chains, and he was compared to Hitler many times. Since Trump supporters had already heard it all before, they believed Trump and Romney comparable, and now we have Trump as our president. If you can't tell, I highly value Romney over Trump, but if you just watched CNN for the past four years you'd think they both are here to steal your soul.
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Pontifex Maximus
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kamigira wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
windsagio wrote:
At risk of the derail getting worse (and in Trey's defense), it is worth noting that Trump has on occasion called for his political opponents and the press to be jailed, and also has private bodyguards that (in one famous case) on film punching a guy out.

It seems like they're 1 bottle of castor oil away, really.


Don't forget he's also talked about censoring the press and fighting against election results (if he had lost).


All correct statements. The free speech one really frustrates me. But is he really the next Hitler or Stalin reincarnate like the press is making him out to be? No, not at all. The more dems use hyperbolic speech to try to prove their point, the more they sound like they're crying wolf. That's really bad cause when PE Trump does screw up, I'd like everyone to be on the same page and call him out on it. But when dems make everything he does a big deal (like complaining after every one of his cabinet picks. Who cares? Name me one of Mr. Obama's cabinet picks besides one of the 3 famous ones. Can't? Cause they don't matter. Obama's the one in charge), it makes it really difficult not to root PE Trump on no matter what he does just to spite the left. Best example I can think of is the fact that the same rhetoric used for PE Trump was also used for Romney, a relatively normal, relatively qualified guy. But Romney's foreign policies were "stuck in the 80's", he wanted to put all the black people back in chains, and he was compared to Hitler many times. Since Trump supporters had already heard it all before, they believed Trump and Romney comparable, and now we have Trump as our president. If you can't tell, I highly value Romney over Trump, but if you just watched CNN for the past four years you'd think they both are here to steal your soul.


You leave out the part where Trump has led a campaign of lies and slanders against a US citizens in order to whip up religious hatred.

Like lying about US Muslims celebrating the 9/11 attack

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/08/trumps-revised-911-claim/

Or stating that

[q]Even among "second and third generation" Muslims in the United States, "there's no real assimilation." /q]

http://www.politifact.com/nbc/statements/2016/jun/18/donald-...

And if you think people are crying "wolf" about a candidate like this, then you are displaying a special kind of stupid
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Trey Chambers
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Trump doesn't have to be the next Hitler or Stalin to be an authoritarian. He can be a lesser, and oranger, one.
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Kumitedad wrote:


You leave out the part where Trump has led a campaign of lies and slanders against a US citizens in order to whip up religious hatred.

Like lying about US Muslims celebrating the 9/11 attack

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/08/trumps-revised-911-claim/

Or stating that

Quote:
Even among "second and third generation" Muslims in the United States, "there's no real assimilation." /q]

http://www.politifact.com/nbc/statements/2016/jun/18/donald-...

And if you think people are crying "wolf" about a candidate like this, then you are displaying a special kind of stupid


Correct. And Hillary called half of Trump supporters (a quarter of voting Americans) deplorable with no facts to back up the claim. This was a very divisive election year on both sides.

I actually read your links. No offense to Muslims but a ton of offense to Politifact, Muslim-Americans don't want to assimilate. Here's Politifacts direct quote: "Research by Lyons-Padilla and Gelfand found that Muslim-Americans’ support for "assimilation" — essentially, the melting-pot model — is low, statistically, at 1.76 on a 6-point scale. But they found support for the integration model to be quite high, at 4.96 out of 6." So maybe Muslims want to integrate but Trump used the word "assimilate." In the article, Politifact defined the terms "assimilate" and "integrate", described how they were different, and then graded Trump "False" because the majority of Muslims want to integrate rather than assimilate. So yeah, I'd say his comments should be considered half true or mostly true if you don't swap out what he actually said with Politifact's word which means something different.

Regarding the wolf comment, I'm saying CNN and other mainstream news outlets have cried 'wolf' or more like 'nazi wolf' for some time now so it's gotten to the point where the actual wolf comes out and no one believes its there. Trump being the wolf.
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"But Hiliary" ...
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Grand Admiral Thrawn
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Yeah Bill Maher admitted we really scewed the pooch on the hyperbole. I'm not really taking the blame though, because I don't work in journalism.
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Grand Admiral Thrawn
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The comparisons of Trump to fascists are not that far off, but then again, my view is coming from the far left. Lexington (The Economist) has a really good column on this describing how he is like Berlusconi and the terms "furbo" and "fesso".

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21712157-fomenti...
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Excellent find, Admiral, excellent.

Liberals/progressives should be used to the struggle. The forces of reaction and oppression know they are fighting a losing battle, but they still think they can hold off defeat for a long time. And they may be right. We have roughly 6,000-7,000 of somewhat reliable history that is somewhat recorded. Freedom, democracy, and egalitarianism have only had brief windows throughout most of that time, only to be crushed by those who value power over all else. It has only been that last century or two that real progress has been made, always slowly because those with power refuse to share it and will kill millions to retain it.

Eventually, they will be tossed into the trash can of history, but as Jefferson, our true progressive Founding Father and one of the most radical of the Founders, said most succinctly:

From time to time, the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
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