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Subject: Has anyone done an analysis of building? rss

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Has anyone done an analysis of building? Why do I feel like building is usually the inferior strategy?

I find Windmill tend to be difficult to utilize.

Tunnel is highly conditional (usually only good if you forgo mechs early).

The other 2 don't give nearly enough (compare to enlisting).

Sure building all 4, depending on the building bonus, sometimes give you up to 9 points but still that is a lot of forethought and planning and probably otherwise unnecessary movement of workers to get you there.

Also there are niche cases where it scores you bonus area if your opponent happens to be "reserved" (or i'd say dumb if that doesn't offend people) enough to not take over your area solely held by building for free.

What are people's thought on buildings?
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Mathue Faulkner
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How is the Windmill difficult to utilize? It's essentially just a free automatic resource every time you produce?

The difference between Enlist and building the Armory/Monument is that you have control over when/if you get those bonuses. You can't really count on the Enlist bonuses.

Really, it's all situational and based on your player board and the game state...
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Jonathan Challis
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Windmill is what almost everyone builds early - it's so good.
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Jack S
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A few advantages on building:
- You get points each game depending on where you erect your buildings
- Buildings 'control' territories for you (assuming no enemy units in the same hex)
- Putting out all four buildings gets you a star
- Putting out buildings can get you coins (more for some player mats)
- Windmill can give you extra resources without putting out more workers (if you don't want to increase the Produce cost)
- Mine gives you access to more of the map without needing mechs
- Mine can also let you 'warp' to more strategic locations as necessary
- Monument / Armory give you a little bit each time, but they're also consistent every time you use those actions
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Brian Scholtanus
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It all depends on the player mat, IMO.

If buildings give me money, but mechs do not, then I will build a Mine ASAP to get out of my area. If it's equal, it usually depends on the Faction I am playing as, including it's starting area.

But most of all, I build things for the popularity. Especially if Trade/Monument is on the same action area.
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Evan Schwartzberg
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Buildings might also help with certain objectives.
And don't discount the end game building bonus. That can be some serious money if you can hit the upper end. I always point it out to new players and they often forget it until I start collecting extra coins at the end.
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Jack S
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When I'm teaching new players and the first building gets built, I usually point to the Structure Bonus one more time to remind them about it for end game scoring.
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mfaulk80 wrote:
How is the Windmill difficult to utilize? It's essentially just a free automatic resource every time you produce?

The difference between Enlist and building the Armory/Monument is that you have control over when/if you get those bonuses. You can't really count on the Enlist bonuses.

Really, it's all situational and based on your player board and the game state...


I know it's situational. But if the "situation" sounds more like, for example (not actual number), "20% good for building 80% not" then Building may be slightly inferior. I am not saying it is outright imbalanced. That why I was wondering if anyone has done analysis on the building strategy.



Of the 4 top row actions, production is the most situational action.
- you pay midgame-impactful resources (i.e. power and popularity instead of money)
- you need to be able to hold your ground
- you need to have access to the resource you need

Windmill adds to that for having the condition that you need to have meaningful 3rd or 4th tile production or it's just a very expensive worker.

On a different note, I almost never want it on Village. Worker production is very sensitive. And then combine that you might want tunnel early if you want to go for building strategy, and that popularity(monument) is also nice to get (not easy otherwise), Windmill is difficult to utilize is not really an understatement, is it?

I understand that it "always work". But is it worth the effort?
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After reading some response, I think I have a clearer thought on the subject.


I think the problem with building is that it just doesn't have the same impact as all the other actions.

Upgrade - I usually try to have my way around this too. But +1 unit to move is quite game changing and you can't get it elsewhere. (meaning if I can skip the upgrade star, and more often than not, i would)

Deploy - Your combat ability depends on them. Your move, carrying workers around, are much more effective. You also get combat advantages (on the 3rd mech from the left). Almost every one of the mech ability is game changing.

Enlist - If your opponents ignore what you are doing, the return per investment is by far the most lucrative. Both the one time bonus and
"tax" are very impactful. If your opponent cares what you are doing, and you successfully defer them from doing certain actions, it is still impactful and you can use it to your benefit. Bottomline is it's still somewhat game changing.

Building - You get a little bit more of your top row action. Besides tunnel, nothing that you receive is "game changing".
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Sjoerd
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I feel the same as OP. Buildings feel inferior. It means that I can do more easily without it, than without any of the other three (upgades, mechs, recruits). But it might be because I don't utilize the buildings well enough.
Still, I tend to build some building most of the time and when opportunity comes I'll build all four.
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Kkouet Kkouet
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The problem is not building is inferior.
I have now some game (like 20-30).

There is 1 faction that need to rush building, it s Polonia.
Why :
- The don't have mine to produce metal so it's expensive to build mech
- They produce wood to build buildings
- it's probably the best way for Polonia to get out with a rush on a mine.


Why building are not the first choice :
- like i said, no many faction produce wood on there first territory
- Because, you probably prefer to enlist the recruit before build the building to gain some popularity (it's one of the best way to gain some popularity)
- construct building is hard because, you can't stack building on the same hex like deploying mech.
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Casper Andersen
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As with all the bottom row actions, it depends a lot on what faction and what playerboard you have, though yes overall it doesn't seem quite as impactful to build. I suspect the bonuspoint-cards for placing building in specific ways are there to alleviate that.

I like to go for buildings, but if I don't start with access to wood or the building action doesn't pair up with a good top-row action and/or gives gold, I should probably not bother with it. I just still tend to get focused in on doing specific things instead of reading my board and faction combo and exploiting that. Mechs are really the only thing worth "going against" your playerboard and faction setup. Like if it costs 4 metal and doesn't give gold and you are Polonia, you are still gonna get at least one mech eventually.
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Andreas Hüttig
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I'd say it is about the same with all bottom actions. Getting the last ones is way worse than getting the early ones. And combinations of factions and player boards can totally encourage or discourage it.

Most of the time either you have good access to wood or get some extra gold by building (distribution is 3-2-2-1-0 like enlist, while the other two have 3-2-1-1-0 and 3-2-1-0-0) AND get extra coins in the end anyways.

And it's the only way to speed up your mil and/or pop gain reliably (if you aren't rusviet) and significantly (if you only switch between trade and boost you get 33-100% increase in gain).
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Brandon Zappala
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I do find that the original poster's opinion on the windmill somewhat curious.

The windmill can be looked at as and upgrade and a worker in one. Though I understand that a windmill is not quite as good as a worker because it cannot be moved or used to do the things that workers do besides production.
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Gareth Roberts
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I like the monument, i'm often bolstering so the free love is appreciated.
I rarely use the armory though.
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Richard Young
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guardianz wrote:
I do find that the original poster's opinion on the windmill somewhat curious.

The windmill can be looked at as and upgrade and a worker in one. Though I understand that a windmill is not quite as good as a worker because it cannot be moved or used to do the things that workers do besides production.
True it is like a stationary worker, but it can control a hex by itself and always allows production in its hex in addition to either the two or three you would get via the production action. Being able to trigger four hexes for production is a good thing and the Mill is the only way to get that.
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Peter Strait
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The thing to remember is the structure bonus tiles that provide VP for buildings based on what hexes they are in or adjacent to. So, yes, absent that they are weaker than the other actions. With that they're a comparable option. (Note that the bonus tiles are also an incentive to produce them before other players, as there can only ever be one building in a hex and some hexes are more valuable than others.)

Also, a quick comparative breakdown:

Mill: roughly equivalent to an Upgrade of production (additional hex) with a Produce of one worker (also produces as a worker). Has the added advantage of not making the Produce action more expensive. Has the disadvantage of being immobile.

Armory + Monument: roughly equivalent to the Enlist action in that there is an Enlist providing the same benefit of one popularity / power when triggered. Has the advantage of being triggered by the top row action, which is likely to occur more times than the bottom row action. Has the disadvantage of not triggering from neighbor's actions.

Mine: the only close similarity is the Riverwalk upgrade, in that it lets you move between hexes that you previously could not, and frees you from being "stuck" in your starting peninsula. The differences are (to state the obvious) pronounced: you don't get the benefit of deploying a mech, you have to permanently choose one hex to work from or through, the best hex for the ability may not be the best hex for the structure bonus tile, etc. On the upside, you immediately gain access to six hexes spread throughout the map, potentially from a hex directly adjacent to your home base (allowing quick redeployment if you lose a battle or have workers displaced); the tactical considerations are very different, though as others have noted there's rarely a question of whether this is a strong building.
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Alec E
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I have only played a few games so far, but here are some observations I have from gameplay and players.

Buildings: In general feel weaker than the other bottom row actions. Though they do give extra coin-points depending on placement at the end of the game, they just don't feel like they have as much impact. My players have agreed with this. I think they are still useful, as they can hold territories for the end-game coin calculation, and they do provide their own bonuses, but I would say they are the lowest priority "in general".

Monument: My favorite choice for buildings. I know the Enlistment-Popularity is "better", but I find this to be helpful, especially towards the end of the game. My personal style is to rush popularity towards the end of the game, so having monument means easy popularity. I also play Crimea a decent amount, so making more combat cards is already part of the job

Armory: The flip-side of the Monument. I tend to not worry about this one at all. It could be good in a combat-heavier game, or if you have a factory card that has a combat-power cost. I think the Enlist-Combatpower option is far greater, as upgrading is the most plentiful action in the game.

Mine: Good if you want to use the tunnels a lot, even more useful if you are Polania, since they don't start with Iron for an easy mech. Probably my 3rd choice for buildings.

Windmill: Many view this as "the best building". I am personally not a fan, but then again, I usually don't move around the board much, so I don't tend to need many workers to spread around. My players and I had some initial confusion, and we mis-read the rules on it. We had interpreted it as: When you take the produce action, the windmill produces a resource. As in, if you have the standard 2-produceable resources, and you have 2 workers and a windmill, you can produce 3 total resources. After re-reading though, the windmill simply offers itself as an OPTION for those 2 resources; it does not actually increase resource output.
EDIT: I may have read it wrong. I now understand that you don't select workers/windmill to produce, you actually select the territories themselves that will produce. This changes things.
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Kkouet Kkouet
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For me, there is only one reason to rush building :
it's rushing the mine.
I precise it's rush and not taking your time before.
The others building is not enought good compare to enlist or upgrade production.

I have recently play some game with the expansions (albion & togawa)
Both factions doesn't have the "speed mech" (+1 movement). They can put token on the map, and teleport to their token later in the game (with a mech's capacity).
I feel that both factions are slow in their move, and i can't attack my opponents, i can only defend because i'm slow (they move 2 hex, i move 1 hex).
And i feel, it's very important to put the token quickly on the map, before the others factions come in the center of the map. To control the map, but the faster way to do this, i think it's to rush the mine then take tunnel.

Maybe i m wrong but next game, it will be my strategy, i will rush mine then try to control the hexs near the factory.



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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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SmartAlec13 wrote:

EDIT: I may have read it wrong. I now understand that you don't select workers/windmill to produce, you actually select the territories themselves that will produce. This changes things.


This is correct. Don't forget that the windmill space counts as a bonus space for the execution of production.

In other words, you can choose 2 spaces (3 if upgraded) to produce on, and each worker in those spaces produces one resource each, PLUS the space with the windmill will also produce one resource for the windmill plus additional resources for each worker there.

In other words if you have non-upgraded production (i.e. choose 2 spaces) and 2 workers on a forest, 1 worker on a mountain and 1 worker and a windmill on a tundra if you chose the forest and the mountain as your two production spaces you would produce 2 wood, 1 stone plus 2 oil for the windmill space.
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Richard Dewsbery
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It may be down to the faction mat and starting positions that I've had, but I rarely build very much at all. I won a game on Sunday without having built a single structure, for example.

I'd much rather prioritise the Enlist action over building something like the Armoury, as potentially that is several incremental advantages rather than just one, and doesn't simply depend on my taking a particular action but chains off my opponents.
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Alec E
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
SmartAlec13 wrote:

EDIT: I may have read it wrong. I now understand that you don't select workers/windmill to produce, you actually select the territories themselves that will produce. This changes things.


This is correct. Don't forget that the windmill space counts as a bonus space for the execution of production.

In other words, you can choose 2 spaces (3 if upgraded) to produce on, and each worker in those spaces produces one resource each, PLUS the space with the windmill will also produce one resource for the windmill plus additional resources for each worker there.

In other words if you have non-upgraded production (i.e. choose 2 spaces) and 2 workers on a forest, 1 worker on a mountain and 1 worker and a windmill on a tundra if you chose the forest and the mountain as your two production spaces you would produce 2 wood, 1 stone plus 2 oil for the windmill space.


Wait, so the windmill-occupied space produces no matter what?

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Gustav W
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SmartAlec13 wrote:
reverendunclebastard wrote:
SmartAlec13 wrote:

EDIT: I may have read it wrong. I now understand that you don't select workers/windmill to produce, you actually select the territories themselves that will produce. This changes things.


This is correct. Don't forget that the windmill space counts as a bonus space for the execution of production.

In other words, you can choose 2 spaces (3 if upgraded) to produce on, and each worker in those spaces produces one resource each, PLUS the space with the windmill will also produce one resource for the windmill plus additional resources for each worker there.

In other words if you have non-upgraded production (i.e. choose 2 spaces) and 2 workers on a forest, 1 worker on a mountain and 1 worker and a windmill on a tundra if you chose the forest and the mountain as your two production spaces you would produce 2 wood, 1 stone plus 2 oil for the windmill space.


Wait, so the windmill-occupied space produces no matter what?


Nope, you can choose not to.
If an opponent control the territory it also can't produce.
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Alec E
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Thanks for the help everyone on that Windmill stuff.

I made myself a handy image so I can understand/explain the rule.

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Mike Campbell
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I find that I probably put the least amount of early investment in buildings in most games, but I'm not sure I would say that building is necessarily the weakest thing to focus on.

If you're aiming for a high popularity win, building is a good path for it; straightforwardly if you build the Monument and use Bolster; and if you have the Building Recruit, you'll gain popularity for each of your's or your neighbours' builds actions.
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