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Subject: Righteous / Poisoned rss

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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Righteous says, "When you perform a Focus action or a Rest action, gain 1 Focus or recover 1 Sanity."

Poisoned says, "When you perform a Rest action, you cannot recover Health or Sanity."

So if an Investigator is both Righteous and Poisoned and they Rest, can they gain Sanity?

I tend to think "No", just because I think it says somewhere that "can't" overrides "can", but we played it like this: The investigator rested in his action phase and did not gain Health or Sanity. Then he flipped the Poisoned card and it said to discard it after passing a test. He passed and he discarded it. So then he resolved Righteous and recovered a Sanity because he was no longer Poisoned. Did we play that right?

I would say that if the flip side of the Poisoned just said to flip it back, then when he resolved Righteous, he would only have been able to gain a Focus, not recover Sanity. Correct?
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Greg Filpus
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You're correct, but here are the reference guide quotes that back it up:

randomlife wrote:
Righteous says, "When you perform a Focus action or a Rest action, gain 1 Focus or recover 1 Sanity."

Poisoned says, "When you perform a Rest action, you cannot recover Health or Sanity."

So if an Investigator is both Righteous and Poisoned and they Rest, can they gain Sanity?

I tend to think "No", just because I think it says somewhere that "can't" overrides "can",


The Golden Rules on page 1 of the reference guide: "If an effect uses the word 'cannot,' that effect is absolute"

Quote:
but we played it like this: The investigator rested in his action phase and did not gain Health or Sanity. Then he flipped the Poisoned card and it said to discard it after passing a test. He passed and he discarded it. So then he resolved Righteous and recovered a Sanity because he was no longer Poisoned. Did we play that right?


RRG page 14, Conflicts: "If multiple effects would be resolved at the same time, the active player decides the order in which they are resolved." So you choose the order to resolve the "When you perform a Rest action triggers", and presumably you resolve the Poisoned before Righteous.

Quote:
I would say that if the flip side of the Poisoned just said to flip it back, then when he resolved Righteous, he would only have been able to gain a Focus, not recover Sanity. Correct?


Yup.
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Lars Johansson
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I would say no.

When you rest the poisoned card is active and you can't recover health or sanity. And it is then Rightous would give you extra sanity if not you were poisoned so you can't get the extra sanity recovery even though you may discard the poisoned card soon. You were still poisoned when you rested.
 
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Martin
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Citronen wrote:
I would say no.

When you rest the poisoned card is active and you can't recover health or sanity. And it is then Rightous would give you extra sanity if not you were poisoned so you can't get the extra sanity recovery even though you may discard the poisoned card soon. You were still poisoned when you rested.

I agree.

Example: If it wasn't true I would trigger the poison condition and get rid of it and then trigger all other conditions and while doing so I would recover 1 health/sanity because it was still my rest action but there wouldn't be any poison condition anymore.

This would make the condition pretty useless if it wasn't true that the poison condition effect still takes place.
 
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Simon C
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Roger the Alien wrote:
Citronen wrote:
I would say no.

When you rest the poisoned card is active and you can't recover health or sanity. And it is then Rightous would give you extra sanity if not you were poisoned so you can't get the extra sanity recovery even though you may discard the poisoned card soon. You were still poisoned when you rested.

I agree.

Example: If it wasn't true I would trigger the poison condition and get rid of it and then trigger all other conditions and while doing so I would recover 1 health/sanity because it was still my rest action but there wouldn't be any poison condition anymore.

This would make the condition pretty useless if it wasn't true that the poison condition effect still takes place.


That's not how resting works though, I think. I think you automatically recover the health and sanity at the start of the rest action, unless prevented by something (such as Poisoned) and then you can trigger any effects that key off of Resting in the order of your choosing. Poisoned being lost as an aspect of resting doesn't prevent you healing because it has a lingering effect, it's because it prevents an immediate effect while it's still in play.
 
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Martin
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LeonardQuirm wrote:
Roger the Alien wrote:
Citronen wrote:
I would say no.

When you rest the poisoned card is active and you can't recover health or sanity. And it is then Rightous would give you extra sanity if not you were poisoned so you can't get the extra sanity recovery even though you may discard the poisoned card soon. You were still poisoned when you rested.

I agree.

Example: If it wasn't true I would trigger the poison condition and get rid of it and then trigger all other conditions and while doing so I would recover 1 health/sanity because it was still my rest action but there wouldn't be any poison condition anymore.

This would make the condition pretty useless if it wasn't true that the poison condition effect still takes place.


That's not how resting works though, I think. I think you automatically recover the health and sanity at the start of the rest action, unless prevented by something (such as Poisoned) and then you can trigger any effects that key off of Resting in the order of your choosing. Poisoned being lost as an aspect of resting doesn't prevent you healing because it has a lingering effect, it's because it prevents an immediate effect while it's still in play.

Half a year ago I received this mail by our rule goddess Nikki, she shall be praised:

Roger the Alien wrote:
Rest action and Poisoned condition:

FAQ: All effects that trigger “when you perform a Rest action” trigger at the same time as the investigator performs that action.

Reference Guide: If multiple effects would be resolved at the same time, the active player decides the order in which they are resolved.

Question: If I have different conditions and I first resolve the Poisoned condition which leads to discarding it, I am still performing my Rest action, does the discarded Poisoned condition still prevents recovering Health/Sanity?

Game Designer Nikki Valens wrote:
Rest action and Poisoned condition: The investigator will not recover any Health or Sanity as part of the Rest action or from effects triggered by the Rest action. The effect "you cannot recover Health nor Sanity" persists until all effects triggered by the Rest action have been fully resolved. This is true even if the investigator discards the Poisoned Condition before resolving an effect that causes him to recover additional Health or Sanity. This is also true of any other Condition or effect that restricts the recovery of Health or Sanity.

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Simon C
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I stand corrected! Useful response there
 
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Martin
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LeonardQuirm wrote:
I stand corrected! Useful response there

Always at your service!
 
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Mark Bauer
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I think it's a bit weird.
I mean, when you discard the detained condition, that prohibits you to perform other actions than the action on this card, you are able to perform a second action during the same action phase.
I know, Poisoned is a triggered ability and detained is not. But it's hard to keep your sanity when trying to keep up the consistency of the ruleset goo
 
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Le Roux Van Der Vyver
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Im with you Mark.

This is a bit weird for me, I was happier with the definition at the top than the official response.

Reason: Well look at reckonings.

If we apply this logic, I could lose my blessing but still be "blessed" for all of my condition rolls. Same for cursed? Investigator decides the order of his reckoning effects for a reason, for the same reason you would think you could choose your Rest effects just as much as your Reckoning.

Detained and Reckoning works the same... so like...
 
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Driss
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"When you perform a Rest action, you cannot recover Health or Sanity."

seems very clear to me. Dont overthink these things.
 
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Mark Bauer
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Sindriss wrote:
"When you perform a Rest action, you cannot recover Health or Sanity."

seems very clear to me. Dont overthink these things.

There is not much overthinking. Of course the card text is clear. But many just think that it is more intuitive to assume that the effect of the card is no longer applicable as soon as the card is gone.

I'd be okay with not getting the regular 1 health + 1 sanity from resting (since this happens at the beginning of the rest action) - but why are healing effects later during this action, after you discarded Poisoned also not applicable?
 
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Driss
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Because the text "When you perform a Rest action" covers the rest action. Next time do a focus action instead
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Le Roux Van Der Vyver
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Sindriss wrote:
Because the text "When you perform a Rest action" covers the rest action. Next time do a focus action instead


Can you try to understand what other people are saying instead of assuming they cannot read English?

As for anyone willing to communicate with someone able to think and speak for themselves, I will probably house rule this one, or house rule Reckonings to not work the same as they did then.

If you choose your order of reckoning events, such that you test to see if your blessed leaves you last, due to the eery omens in the sky or whatever the thematic interpretation of a reckoning is. Then you would still be blessed when you test all your Madnesses, injuries etc. Right at the end I see if my blessed goes away, great.
This is because as per Reference Guide, when there are multiple effects, active Investigator chooses order of effects. Gives you some agency.

Now with the Ruling on Poison, it makes sense that you cannot "Recover Health or Sanity", because that is an effect of Resting. You lose out on the +1 to each from the action. However, if you are no longer Poisoned, due to being able to choose order of effects, it makes no sense that the Poison would continue to prevent Health or Sanity to be recovered by an Investigator from something else that triggers on a Rest action. The ruling makes Poison a far more detrimental condition than it used to be and also brings into question the logic of being able to choose your reckoning effect order but not your Resting, or at least not being able to choose Resting in a meaningful manner.

I mean I can choose my blessing to disappear AFTER my Hallucinations and Bank Injury flare up (How crazy is that), but even though I recover from Poison before seeking further medical help the Poison stops it from helping me.

There is a logic inconsistency there, one which I have not seen before in the game and I feel the need to point it out.
 
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Driss
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Feel free to misinterpret the card text but leave me out of your delusions. I didn't assume anything about anybody. We are discussing rules which are available in several languages.
 
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Martin
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Why don't you or anybody else which is interested in this subject contacts FFG/Nikki?

I did it always in the past if people were arguing (EH and other games) but this time I won't do it because I didn't play EH for months.

She usually answered me within 24 hours.

Most companies even provide such a service.

I do not understand people who houserule specific situations instead of contacting the company if they are interested in playing the game as intended.
It wasn't a lot of effort everytime I did it although sometimes it took some days/a week to receive an answer.

Nikki always provided the fastest/best service.

I can see the concerns regarding the poisoned/righteous situation and in addition to that the comparison with reckonings but everything I can provide is the official answer I've got in the past.
This was already asked in the past and other threads also state that the effect of the poisoned condition remains for the whole rest action, no matter what.
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Lars Johansson
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For me it's no logical inconsistency.

Mostly for perception of time. The rest action is a short time period and the other things you do during the rest action takes no extra time. The Reckoning is a longer time period with lots of different things happening to a lot of people and each thing happening is a separate thing, only having the same evil cause.

Besides that I always read the bonus heals as improvements on the original automatic heals and such happening at the exact same time, regardless the order you read the specific cards. So since Poisoned killed the original heals it killes all other heals that happened at the exact same time.
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