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Subject: What to do when a target is in Close Range but out of Short Range? rss

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Dan Depends
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Hi all- I picked up a set of this game second hand and have been working through the first scenario solo and have a few questions. I've downloaded v 2.0 of the SMG rules and have searched the threads but can't find an answer to this

I have a MP40 armed german soldier who has a Close range of 16 inches and a Short range of 3 squares. In the starting scenario he is located in square 9A shooting at a US soldier located in square 3A. Square 8A sits betweeen the two soldiers.

The square count is 2 with a -3 modifier for square 3A and 8A, i.e. For Short Range I would need 5 or higher on the soldier card to hit- so I can't get a short range shot.

However the target is only 7 inches away. With the close range value of 16 and a -3 modifier- the target is easily within Close range but out of Short range?

Any pointers? I can't see how the soldier could have targets in close range but fail the short range check.

Thanks for any pointers.

Daniel
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Itdepends wrote:
Hi all- I picked up a set of this game second hand and have been working through the first scenario solo and have a few questions. I've downloaded v 2.0 of the SMG rules and have searched the threads but can't find an answer to this

I have a MP40 armed german soldier who has a Close range of 16 inches and a Short range of 3 squares. In the starting scenario he is located in square 9A shooting at a US soldier located in square 3A. Square 8A sits betweeen the two soldiers.

The square count is 2 with a -3 modifier for square 3A and 8A, i.e. For Short Range I would need 5 or higher on the soldier card to hit- so I can't get a short range shot.

However the target is only 7 inches away. With the close range value of 16 and a -3 modifier- the target is easily within Close range but out of Short range?

Any pointers? I can't see how the soldier could have targets in close range but fail the short range check.

Thanks for any pointers.

Daniel


With a -3 modifier, your Short would be 3 - 3 = 0 squares. Your Close would be 16 - 3 = 13 inches. The target is within Close range, but not Short. Your conclusion is correct, and you expressed the results in exactly the right way, "the target is within Close range but out of short range", which is what matters. Within a certain distance and given the right SHOOT modifiers it can come out that Close seems farther than Short. This is intentional. What it says is "Within a given distance to target and a certain number of obstacles, I can at least get half of my firepower to potentially have some effect."

Does this help?
 
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Dan Depends
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It seems somewhat counter intuitive. If I play it this way (passing close range even though I cant pass short range) when pulling for hits I'll count any hits on close and short (as well as long range of course) (as per page 23, Hit Checks)

So I dont get penalised for not meeting the short range at all. I guess I am asking because the soldier feels overpowered when measuring for close range. At 16" he can span 4 normal size terrain tiles (before modifiers are applied) and the impact of the negative shoot modifiers is relatively small when applied to such a high base (in inches)
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Itdepends wrote:
It seems somewhat counter intuitive. If I play it this way (passing close range even though I cant pass short range) when pulling for hits I'll count any hits on close and short (as well as long range of course) (as per page 23, Hit Checks)

So I dont get penalised for not meeting the short range at all. I guess I am asking because the soldier feels overpowered when measuring for close range. At 16" he can span 4 normal size terrain tiles (before modifiers are applied) and the impact of the negative shoot modifiers is relatively small when applied to such a high base (in inches)


You don't count Short in the example you gave because Short range is 0.

Also, your Soldier's Close range is an anomaly as most don't have such high Close values. He is exceptional with the MP40, and a real asset.
 
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Michael Bowker
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skippykaos wrote:
Itdepends wrote:
It seems somewhat counter intuitive. If I play it this way (passing close range even though I cant pass short range) when pulling for hits I'll count any hits on close and short (as well as long range of course) (as per page 23, Hit Checks)

So I dont get penalised for not meeting the short range at all. I guess I am asking because the soldier feels overpowered when measuring for close range. At 16" he can span 4 normal size terrain tiles (before modifiers are applied) and the impact of the negative shoot modifiers is relatively small when applied to such a high base (in inches)


You don't count Short in the example you gave because Short range is 0.

Also, your Soldier's Close range is an anomaly as most don't have such high Close values. He is exceptional with the MP40, and a real asset.


I know I have asked Jeff Billings this question before. I had it come up at a convention as he happened to be walking by and we asked. I also thought it had been addressed here but can't find anything now.

The understanding I had was that if you were at Close you always look at Short and Long. Even if you can't equal the Short Range the results are still used because you are at close.

As I said, this is from what Jeff B told me. I don't see anything official in the 2.0 rulebook either way though.

Maybe I missed something?? Did something change?


Found a discussion on this from 2014. Jeff B didn't contribute to it but Jason Williams, who is quite active with the game did comment.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/15140947#15140947
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Greg
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This same principle works when a soldier has a short range that is better than his long range. You get to use the short and long results even if the target was in short range and not long range. You wouldn't just get to use the short range result.

When this had been brought up years ago when we started getting soldiers with short range further than long range, we were inquiring about it. What did it mean, was it a mistake. All I remember Jeff B saying was that it was a personality trait of sort, like they were a snap shot or something. He never once mentioned, that I ever saw, that it in any way affected the range results you look at.

Perhaps there has been a rules change somewhere not documented, and that nobody has ever been made aware of in several years since this strange range stuff. started.
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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This will get sorted out and explicitly defined in the next version of the rules, just as "Spot" versus "Sight" will be specifically laid to rest.

Sometimes, it seems like the programming for certain Soldiers falls outside of certain parameters, but is missed in Soldier generation and production. These Soldier anomalies are then explained away as traits, which they are created from. So that much is true. But it's like having a person with six fingers on one hand. Out of the norm. I'm not saying this is how it is. It just seems that way. It can be tested empirically by having SMG Soldiers converted to their SDD versions to see if Close is in fact longer than Short. I don't think anyone has asked for such a conversion, though the option is always there. If I can get the dog tag of a few soldiers with this sort of thing, I can get the SDD version to compare.

The other thing to look at is whether or not this is an issue with the MP40 and other sub-machine-guns.
 
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Dan Depends
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Thanks for the replies- to clarify my comments on not getting penalised (or counting short hits).

In my original example- the target is in Close range (but not in Short range). Because I can get a valid target at close range I draw cards and check for hits at close range and "all the results that are equal or longer than the distance you determined" (V2.0 of rules, page 23). This includes checking for hits at close and long range (hence my comment about not being penalized.)

RE the soldier's details

Rothschild, MP40
Close 16 in
Short 3 sq
Long 8 Sq
Toss 12in
Use Hit+

VP 4

Dog Tag 135-499

He may have great range stats- but his hit draws stink, 5 blast hits and only 1 Close+ hit (no other Close, Short or Long hits).

Thematically - most of the time he can't hit the side of a barn but occasionally he pulls off an extraordinary shot

Cheers,

Daniel
 
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John Di Ponio
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You'll find as you play more, you'll get it Dan. It is quite a rewarding game, There is nothing out there like it. I have loved the game since it's release. I have grown up with the system I guess going through all the rules changes. You will find, like may other games, that you may need a house rule or two to get you past some situations. The main thing is to have fun and enjoy the experience!!!
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Itdepends wrote:
Thanks for the replies- to clarify my comments on not getting penalised (or counting short hits).

In my original example- the target is in Close range (but not in Short range). Because I can get a valid target at close range I draw cards and check for hits at close range and "all the results that are equal or longer than the distance you determined" (V2.0 of rules, page 23). This includes checking for hits at close and long range (hence my comment about not being penalized.)

RE the soldier's details

Rothschild, MP40
Close 16 in
Short 3 sq
Long 8 Sq
Toss 12in
Use Hit+

VP 4

Dog Tag 135-499

He may have great range stats- but his hit draws stink, 5 blast hits and only 1 Close+ hit (no other Close, Short or Long hits).

Thematically - most of the time he can't hit the side of a barn but occasionally he pulls off an extraordinary shot

Cheers,

Daniel


Both SMG and SDD versions of Rothschild are being generated, so I'll let you know what I find out for comparative purposes.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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JohnnyD wrote:
You'll find as you play more, you'll get it Dan. It is quite a rewarding game, There is nothing out there like it. I have loved the game since it's release. I have grown up with the system I guess going through all the rules changes. You will find, like may other games, that you may need a house rule or two to get you past some situations. The main thing is to have fun and enjoy the experience!!!


House rules are the things I want to examine as I write the next iteration of the rules, especially if they fill gaps in the current rules. If anyone has some, please Geek-Mail them to me.
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Greg
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skippykaos wrote:
This will get sorted out and explicitly defined in the next version of the rules, just as "Spot" versus "Sight" will be specifically laid to rest.

Sometimes, it seems like the programming for certain Soldiers falls outside of certain parameters, but is missed in Soldier generation and production. These Soldier anomalies are then explained away as traits, which they are created from. So that much is true. But it's like having a person with six fingers on one hand. Out of the norm. I'm not saying this is how it is. It just seems that way. It can be tested empirically by having SMG Soldiers converted to their SDD versions to see if Close is in fact longer than Short. I don't think anyone has asked for such a conversion, though the option is always there. If I can get the dog tag of a few soldiers with this sort of thing, I can get the SDD version to compare.

The other thing to look at is whether or not this is an issue with the MP40 and other sub-machine-guns.



So a solder with a short range longer than his long range doesn't get to look at short and long when checking for hits if the target is just within short range, but not within long range?

Why didn't Jeff B. say that years ago?

Just looking through a handful of soldiers, I have a Konig with short 7 long 6 with a Mauser. I also have a Galley with close 13in and short 4 squares with the M1 Rifle.

Haven't gone through but a handful from either side and found some of these types of guys. In either case, having the longer value at a lesser range isn't quite the same if they skip being able to use all the range hit checks that they normally would.
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Hahma wrote:
skippykaos wrote:
This will get sorted out and explicitly defined in the next version of the rules, just as "Spot" versus "Sight" will be specifically laid to rest.

Sometimes, it seems like the programming for certain Soldiers falls outside of certain parameters, but is missed in Soldier generation and production. These Soldier anomalies are then explained away as traits, which they are created from. So that much is true. But it's like having a person with six fingers on one hand. Out of the norm. I'm not saying this is how it is. It just seems that way. It can be tested empirically by having SMG Soldiers converted to their SDD versions to see if Close is in fact longer than Short. I don't think anyone has asked for such a conversion, though the option is always there. If I can get the dog tag of a few soldiers with this sort of thing, I can get the SDD version to compare.

The other thing to look at is whether or not this is an issue with the MP40 and other sub-machine-guns.



So a solder with a short range longer than his long range doesn't get to look at short and long when checking for hits if the target is just within short range, but not within long range?

Why didn't Jeff B. say that years ago?

Just looking through a handful of soldiers, I have a Konig with short 7 long 6 with a Mauser. I also have a Galley with close 13in and short 4 squares with the M1 Rifle.

Haven't gone through but a handful from either side and found some of these types of guys. In either case, having the longer value at a lesser range isn't quite the same if they skip being able to use all the range hit checks that they normally would.


I'm not saying JB screwed up. I'm just saying it "seems" abnormal. If this weirdness was by design, then I need to make sure it is written as a hard and fast rule in the rule-book. I'm investigating it so I have it correct when I write it.

Oh, I think Galley is fine. I'd worry if his Close was 21".
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Greg
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skippykaos wrote:
Hahma wrote:
skippykaos wrote:
This will get sorted out and explicitly defined in the next version of the rules, just as "Spot" versus "Sight" will be specifically laid to rest.

Sometimes, it seems like the programming for certain Soldiers falls outside of certain parameters, but is missed in Soldier generation and production. These Soldier anomalies are then explained away as traits, which they are created from. So that much is true. But it's like having a person with six fingers on one hand. Out of the norm. I'm not saying this is how it is. It just seems that way. It can be tested empirically by having SMG Soldiers converted to their SDD versions to see if Close is in fact longer than Short. I don't think anyone has asked for such a conversion, though the option is always there. If I can get the dog tag of a few soldiers with this sort of thing, I can get the SDD version to compare.

The other thing to look at is whether or not this is an issue with the MP40 and other sub-machine-guns.



So a solder with a short range longer than his long range doesn't get to look at short and long when checking for hits if the target is just within short range, but not within long range?

Why didn't Jeff B. say that years ago?

Just looking through a handful of soldiers, I have a Konig with short 7 long 6 with a Mauser. I also have a Galley with close 13in and short 4 squares with the M1 Rifle.

Haven't gone through but a handful from either side and found some of these types of guys. In either case, having the longer value at a lesser range isn't quite the same if they skip being able to use all the range hit checks that they normally would.


I'm not saying JB screwed up. I'm just saying it "seems" abnormal. If this weirdness was by design, then I need to make sure it is written as a hard and fast rule in the rule-book. I'm investigating it so I have it correct when I write it.

Oh, I think Galley is fine. I'd worry if his Close was 21".


I wasn't worried so much that Galley is "broken" so to speak, but more about a situation for him, Konig and others where they may barely reach a target with a shorter range but not the next higher range. My worry is whether or not they still get the full hit check like normal for that range and higher like normal, or if they don't get to count the results for the longer range that they actually didn't meet because it was shorter than a lower range.

I just want to know which way to play that, because this thread is the first I've heard of it, so it's throwing me for a loop
 
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Dan Depends
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Thanks for the feedback guys- for the moment I'll keep playing that successful shorter range checks give hit checks for longer ranges (even if those longer range checks fail). Like Greg I've got a soldier or two who have short ranges (in hexes) longer than their long ranges.
 
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Mayor Jim
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Well, I've been lurking here for a while and yes, this is an anomaly that was addressed by Jeff B. Some time ago. For the life of me I can't find the thread though. I believe his answer was something along the lines of some troopers just shoot better (longer) closer in than they do mid range. Maybe it's their eyesight or quick trigger fingers? whistle...hopefully Jeff will get this sorted out for us?
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Vance Strickland
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MayorJim wrote:
Well, I've been lurking here for a while and yes, this is an anomaly that was addressed by Jeff B. Some time ago. For the life of me I can't find the thread though. I believe his answer was something along the lines of some troopers just shoot better (longer) closer in than they do mid range. Maybe it's their eyesight or quick trigger fingers? whistle...hopefully Jeff will get this sorted out for us?


This is the same I remember from that thread as well.
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Michael Bowker
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I spent some time and went through every post using the word range and looked for responses from Jeff B.

The first is from 2012 and explains some of the reasoning for the longer range being less than the shorter range:

Jeff Billings wrote:
Mike asked me to explain the Short being larger than the Long.

Two types of modifiers are possible that can cause that for Carbines and machine pistols/submachineguns. The first is a visual impairment of some type, we don't get into the actual issue, but it could be a wound that is not enough to discharge the soldier, an inability to discern a target at range and several other reductions in LONG distances. in that case the Long is reduced to account for the impairment. The second one is Marksmanship or special skill at the weapons use. We increase the SHORT in those cases, in that case the soldier checks all SHORT and LONG Hit Checks to account for the improved accuracy. I don't hide the difference since I use it in other game mechanics - soon to be released.

The software that generates the soldiers is being expanded to integrate with the website roster system to list the various skills and impairments (foibles) that the soldier has. We are not going to reveal a complete formula of the soldier system. We will build some keyholes that give the flavor of the system and a peek into how it works.

I am working on that code this week. I am about a month behind my personal target timeline. We have been adding people, expanding our facilities and training them. I know to expect delays when adding staff, however I missed that detail this time around. Expect the Roster System by the end of the month.

I hope this helps.


Here is a link to a whole thread about this:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/892286/near-sighted-1st-sgt...

Jeff goes into some of the rational and how it happens.

Here is another one from 2014. Unfortunately this doesn't include any input from LBG staff but does demonstrate that players have been under the impression that if you can shoot at Close but not Short you count hits for all three:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/15592061#15592061

And another that reiterates the point:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/15140947#15140947

It was at Fall In 2013 that we played in the game where Jeff Billings answered the question about using all three range results. I found the AAR I had written up. We had that question and a question about how to position the template for the Panzerfaust.

I'm not trying to say that things can't change, we have seen grenades change a couple of times, but as far as I know, there has never been anything from Jeff Billings saying that you don't count all three results, event if you only meet Close and Long.






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Greg
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Good work Michael!

As you say, it's not that things can't change, it's just that until this thread, that came to be close to 2017, there has been no mention of such change.

Then the question comes to be that if these changes are made it can complicate things slightly, as the same soldier will sometimes be able to use certain hit checks for a range, and sometimes not.

It would also bring questions with regards to whether the VP'S for the soldiers were accounted for if they have these goofy ranges and don't get proper hit checks.
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Mayor Jim
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Nice job Michael! ...I knew it was there somewhere whistle

Greg, you bring up some new wrinkles that will have to be addressed cry
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Hahma wrote:
Good work Michael!

As you say, it's not that things can't change, it's just that until this thread, that came to be close to 2017, there has been no mention of such change.

Then the question comes to be that if these changes are made it can complicate things slightly, as the same soldier will sometimes be able to use certain hit checks for a range, and sometimes not.

It would also bring questions with regards to whether the VP'S for the soldiers were accounted for if they have these goofy ranges and don't get proper hit checks.


I don't think any changes will be made. The rules just need to be less ambiguous, and they will be.

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Kirill Krymskiy
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I just want to throw in my 2 cents.

I asked about the same situation with Short range greater than Long when I first started with SMG several years ago. And all this time played like you all do.

But now I had a second thought about this situation. If I count hits for Short and Long range when shooting at Short range then attribute for Long range on the soldier's card doesn't mean anything, it can be just any number if less then Short range. As though soldier doesn't have a Long range attribute at all but we always count Long range hits when he shoots. Maybe this's ok, but I can't think of any personal feature of such a soldier to explain this.

However, if for such a soldier with Short range greater than Long (or Close greater than Short) I count only hits for valid ranges (say for Short range and not for Long , when shooting at Short and if Long is not valid) it's like soldier has farsightedness (or how it's called). He has greater hit chance on greater range. How can this be realized? In most of our action decks there're more Short range hits than Long range hits, I suppose nobody will argue with this=) So soldier with Short range greater than Long has greater hit chance at his actual further range (which is Short in this case). At least, this makes sense to me.
What do you think about this?

BTW, I got my SHOW staff last week and wow! tanks are amazing! Got Sherman, M8 Greyhound and SdKfz 250-1 (wanted to try different armor weights) and now studying the rules to give them a try.

Oh, and I have a question about "table etiquette". Do you measure (or allow to measure) BEFORE deciding to take an action? Like measuring to see at what range the soldiers are before announcing to Shoot. Or do you first announce some soldier makes Shoot action and then measure at what range he shoots?

P.S. Sorry for my grammar whistle
 
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Mayor Jim
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Re: table etiquette ... We play where no pre-measurement is allowed. Announce your target first, then see what range they are in...
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Kirill Krymskiy
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MayorJim wrote:
Re: table etiquette ... We play where no pre-measurement is allowed. Announce your target first, then see what range they are in...


Thanks Jim. I allowed measurement at any time but now after several years it stroke me to think about it=)
 
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I believe the intent of the rules is that you find the range to the shortest range band you qualify for and then add all the hits for that range and longer. The way the rules are structured, the closer you are, the more hits you can land on target. I would not just use the hits for only the band you qualify for, that diminishes the quality of your cards by a great deal.

For example, if I have a card that only has a hit at Long range but I qualify for Close, then I miss under the "range band only" ruling. If I use the current rulings, that is a Hit at any range. Sure LBG could have put Hits at all ranges, but in my mind, this is just as simple.

Regarding Close longer than Short, or some variant of that, I remember JB stating that it's basically a design artifact from the formulas and matrices he uses to generate a soldier's cards. We don't have access to the info JB does, but if I were to hazard a guess, the Dog Tag contains the numbers to punch into 6+ formulas to determine all the stats and the cards. So for example, the first digit in the Dog Tag might be "reaction", then if the number is high enough it triggers an increase in Close range where a different "stat"/"attribute" could reduce the Short range and give us those numbers. There was a thread or post on the LBG website (or kickstarter), where JB described a soldiers background and I bet it was based off the Tag. I suppose JB's response in this thread speaks to that understanding (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/892286/near-sighted-1st-sgt...)

That quote from JB should be in the rules as a designer note for clarity.
 
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