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Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
. . . The problems are 1] for solitaire play log plots don't work well, 2] the 2nd guessing where he would go so you can rake him is way too easy, 3] collisions happen by accident too often.

NOTE: These ships only pay 1 MP for the 1st turn in a game-turn, after that turns are free. If you use your free turn for your 1st turn then you must pay 1 MP if you make a 2nd turn. These ships have the same speeds as the original game, but the hexes are only half as big and g-turns are only 1.5 minutes long. After they take rigging damage they have slightly different speeds.

I recommend that players practice moving in full game-turns for a while before they start using the Impulse system. This will get you used to how the ships should move in g-turns. And then chopping the g-turns into impulses will not be as confusing.

I added the extra free turn for SOL in dir. B so that they could move smoothly through 180 deg turns. Then I gave a free turn to well crewed Frigates to balance out the benefit for the SOL.

. . . . a] Each game-turn is divided into 4 “Impulses”. A Free turn can only be used to make a turn. A "½" indicates a ship that moves even slower than 1 per g-turn. The "½" can only be used to move 1 or to turn&move [yes, a full “turn&move”] in an even numbered g-turn. A 1 can be used either for a turn&move or for a move of 1 hex. A 2 can be used either to move 2 hexes or to make a turn&move.

Players use the log to set their speed and how many back-sails his ships will use, 0, 1, 2 or 3. Players must do what they wrote, speed and how many back-sails. Ships with Full sails set can use at most 1 Back-sails.

. . . b] Ships move in the Impulses with a 1 and don't move in an Impulse with a 0. With Battle sails only 1 action can be performed in an Impulse [exception a Free turn and a 1 can both be used in an Impulse to make a turn&move]. When a turn is performed the stern will move into a new hex [like they did in the original rules] but this is temporary and never causes a collision. Remember that all turns are part of a turn&move, a ship can't turn and stop. When 2 ships are to move in the same Impulse, the player with the faster speed ship decides which is moved 1st unless 1 has Full Sails set.

. . . c] With Full Sails ships still use the same 4 impulses, but now ships often perform 2 actions per impulse. There is no damage to confuse things. Ships with full sails set always move before ships with battle sails set.

. . . . Impulse Move Table Ships with both sail settings use the same 4 impulses.
Impulse. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
speed ½ = 0 ½ 0 0 A speed ½ ship moves 1 in an even numbered g-turn in the 2nd Imp. or 0 in an odd g-turn.
speed 1 = 0 1 0 0, where 1 means it moves that impulse and 0 means it doesn't.
speed 1½ = 0 1 0 ½, with damaged rigging just use the new speeds, a ½ either moves 1 or 0 so its plain what to do.
speed 2 = 0 1 0 1 “Move” here means to expend MPs to perform actions.
speed 3 = 1 1 0 1
speed 4 = 1 1 1 1
Impulse. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
speed 5 = 1 2 1 1, where 2 means move 2 in that impulse & the 1 means move just 1 in that impulse.
speed 6 = 2 2 1 1 . I used an edit to rearrange the Impulses that
speed 7 = 2 2 1 2 . the ships with Full sails move 2 hexes.

. . . d] The ships that have Full sails set move 1st. I figure that ships with Full sails spread will be less maneuverable, so I made them commit to their move before all other ships. Then the ship that is moving slowest. Then alternate players moving his 1 slowest ship that can move in the impulse. We will need some way to mark ships that moved already when there are more than a few per side. I suggest very small cheap plastic pawns from a chess set placed near a ship to mark it. You need to move your own ships out of the way of ships behind them. You can collide with your own ships.

. . . e] Ships can fire after any impulse. Actions, like loading the guns, now take “impulses”. Ball shot takes 6 impulses, double shot is 8, etc. Crew quality might change this.

. . . f] Different wind speeds can be handled by changing the time to do actions, like load guns. Lower wind speed becomes slower ships, slower ships means a game-turn and an impulse represents a longer time but the ships still move the same. So, guns can be loaded in 4 impulses, double shot in 6 impulses. Higher wind speeds do the opposite, now it takes 2 more impulses to load the guns than normal, etc.

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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
I just discovered all your WS&IM threads. Lemme tuck-a-buck for your efforts while I read them all.
 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule

A second dollah from the Underbelly Institute.
 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
scribidinus wrote:
I just discovered all your WS&IM threads.


There's been a slew of them over the past week or so. Makes me wonder if maybe the OP just wants to write his own age of sail wargame? I think at this point nearly every major section of WSIM rules has been picked apart & rewritten?
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule

The rulebook isn't big enough to classify anything a major section!

More power to him. Very old school, changing rules you don't like. We may end up with a more interesting game.
 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
claudermilk wrote:
scribidinus wrote:
I just discovered all your WS&IM threads.


There's been a slew of them over the past week or so. Makes me wonder if maybe the OP just wants to write his own age of sail wargame? I think at this point nearly every major section of WSIM rules has been picked apart & rewritten?

Yes, it will almost be an all new game. Is that a problem?
 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
Nope. It's just looking like you don't like WSIM, so I wonder why the effort spent on it vs writing something from the ground up?

I definitely don't mean to knock the effort, just curious as to the motivation & tack taken.
 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
I always found impulse system to be more fun but always run in to the problem of time - It actually takes longer to play them because the decisions multiply throughout the turn (once in proximity/firing range). I find this true of all goes that use impulses. Writing down and executing orders seems so simple, yet people always take "too long" to figure it out. Fifteen minutes for 6 MPs is the "record" - and it was a loooong day!

My attempt at a solution was to create orders cards for each vehicle and players have to "plot" their next action (only). I also try to keep players "going" rather than "plodding" (not a typo). This reduces record keeping as you only have to track your speed (some players like to know what their impulses for turn are.

I learned all this from playing Car Wars in the 80's. And Air Force. And Swashbuckler.

I think the one advantage to plotted movement is the possibility of PBeM gaming?
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
Have you looked at movement in Wings of Glory WWII or Sails of Glory? It's a very interesting concept and would translate to hexes very well.

S.
 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
claudermilk wrote:
Nope. It's just looking like you don't like WSIM, so I wonder why the effort spent on it vs writing something from the ground up?

I definitely don't mean to knock the effort, just curious as to the motivation & tack taken.

It seems like I get asked this question a lot.

I am 70. We retired to live in Thailand to be closer to Pim's family and to make our Soc. Sec. go 3 times further.

The drawback of this is I can't afford to buy games because of the additional shipping and the 100% Thai VAT tax. Another drawback is the lack of opponents.

So, I am finishing projects I started 40 years ago by fixing the old games from way back then. It keeps my mind active. It is something to do.

To those who read variants because there might be something of value in one someday*, I suggest that you not read mine because I write a lot of them (I even go back and change them when I got it wrong the 1st time), and usually the final product is more of a new game than a variant.

To those who hate variants in any form, I ask, "Why are you even subscribing to a 'variants' thread? Do you do it just to post snide comments?"

I have tried to make a Sailing Warship game using squares instead of hexes. The thought is that the longer diagonal distance doesn't matter in this case because the ships move different distances compared to the wind direction anyway and the gun range can be corrected by making you count range 1 diagonal and 1 straight or just 1 or 2 straight. This rounds off the corners of the gun's range nicely.


. * . An example of this should be my thread on the Rigging boxes of Frigates being too many.
2 Edits to fix 1 spelling error.
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
martimer wrote:
I always found impulse system to be more fun but always run in to the problem of time - It actually takes longer to play them because the decisions multiply throughout the turn (once in proximity/firing range). I find this true of all goes that use impulses. Writing down and executing orders seems so simple, yet people always take "too long" to figure it out. Fifteen minutes for 6 MPs is the "record" - and it was a loooong day!

My attempt at a solution was to create orders cards for each vehicle and players have to "plot" their next action (only). I also try to keep players "going" rather than "plodding" (not a typo). This reduces record keeping as you only have to track your speed (some players like to know what their impulses for turn are.

I learned all this from playing Car Wars in the 80's. And Air Force. And Swashbuckler.

I think the one advantage to plotted movement is the possibility of PBeM gaming?

Yes that is right, Pre-plotting the moves is better for play by email. If there were a new Vassal Mod. for WS&IM I think it could be used in real time to play a very interactive system like an impulse system.

Another thought is to use a chess clock. Set them for 5 min. and give the players just that long to finish their move. After that your ship finishes its allotted movement straight ahead. The players alternate moving 1 ship then pressing the clock to start the other guy's clock. This really gives a player 10 min. of time too think about what in WS&IM was a 3 min. turn. That ought to be enough. As players get better they could try to get the time down to either 3 min. or 1.5 min. for my version (each).

The few times I have tried to play a game like that I have gotten all hopped up on the "rush of moving".

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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
Steve1501 wrote:
claudermilk wrote:
Nope. It's just looking like you don't like WSIM, so I wonder why the effort spent on it vs writing something from the ground up?

I definitely don't mean to knock the effort, just curious as to the motivation & tack taken.

It seems like I get asked this question a lot.

I am 70. We retired to live in Thailand to be closer to Pim's family and to make our Soc. Sec. go 3 times further.

The drawback of this is I can't afford to buy games because of the additional shipping and the 100% Thai VAT tax. Another drawback is the lack of opponents.

So, I am finishing projects I started 40 years ago by fixing the old games from way back then. It keeps my mind active. It is something to do.

To those who read variants because there might be something of value in one someday*, I suggest that you not read mine because I write a lot of them (I even go back and change them when I got it wrong the 1st time), and usually the final product is more of a new game than a variant.

To those who hate variants in any form, I ask, "Why are you even subscribing to a 'variants' thread? Do you do it just to post snide comments?"

I have tried to make a Sailing Warship game using squares instead of hexes. The thought is that the longer diagonal distance doesn't matter in this case because the ships move different distances compared to the wind direction anyway and the gun range can be corrected by making you count range 1 diagonal and 1 straight or just 1 or 2 straight. This rounds off the corners of the gun's range nicely.


. * . An example of this should be my thread on the Rigging boxes of Frigates being too many.
2 Edits to fix 1 spelling error.

Thanks for the reply. That was far more information than I was looking for or expecting (but I did ask...).

I get where you are coming from now, the context helps. I hope you didn't take my question as snide--it was not intended that way. I was honestly wondering at all the effort made to make so many sweeping changes to the old game vs simply writing one from scratch.

Oh, and regarding the subscription: I suspect many subscribe the same way I have. That is simply to the game itself, so any post in any of the forums pops up.
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
claudermilk wrote:
Thanks for the reply. That was far more information than I was looking for or expecting (but I did ask...).

I get where you are coming from now, the context helps. I hope you didn't take my question as snide--it was not intended that way. I was honestly wondering at all the effort made to make so many sweeping changes to the old game vs simply writing one from scratch.

Oh, and regarding the subscription: I suspect many subscribe the same way I have. That is simply to the game itself, so any post in any of the forums pops up.

No, I was not thinking of you in that part. I was thinking of Todd and several people who "protect" PanzerBlitz from variants. I just don't understand them.

OK, you have a complete subscription to WS&IM. Maybe Todd does too. Even so, If one hates variants why click on and read a post once one knows it is in Variants? And then post a snide comment?

No need to answer it's a rhetorical question.

 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
OK, no worries. I could currently probably considered in the same group over at the RoboRally forum (I'm not convinced the new version is a "fix" or the old version was "broken").

I have enough on my own plate right now that I have not read your variant through, but I might just give it a read through. You may very well have great ideas in there.

Oh, and it's kind of ironic to bring up PanzerBlitz. I missed out on it back in the day, but recently found Mike Nagel's Tactical GameX--a complete re-do of PB/PL. I'll bet those guys you mention get hives at the mere thought. Myself, I'm intrigued--so I ought to give your material a read-through.
 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
Steve1501 wrote:
... g-turns are only 1.5 minutes long. ... Each game-turn is divided into 4 “Impulses”.

I would be concerned that with each impulse lasting only about 23 seconds you might be making the ships far more responsive than they were in reality.
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
tms2 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
... g-turns are only 1.5 minutes long. ... Each game-turn is divided into 4 “Impulses”.

I would be concerned that with each impulse lasting only about 23 seconds you might be making the ships far more responsive than they were in reality.

Yes, you are right again.

I have already lengthened the game-turns to 2 min. because of this.

This may still make them too responsive.

But, pre-plotting has other problems.

 
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Re: Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
This is the current rule I'm using. It can be used with the original rules by deleting the extra speed lines, 0*, 1/2, & 1 &1/2.

This rule goes back to turns cost 1 MP each. Ships can make 1 less turn per game-turn than before. The 44-gun Frig. can make 2 less turns unless they have an Elite crew.

Players use the log to set their speed and how many back-sails his ships will use, 0, 1, 2 or 3. Players must do what they wrote, speed and how many back-sails. Ships with Full sails set can use at most 1 Back-sails. During a game-turn players should write the log as they move to record what they just did.

. . . 1] Each game-turn is divided into 4 “Impulses”. At the end of any impulse a ship may fire its guns that are loaded, it need not have used a MP and done an Action. The numbers you get from the Impulse Move Table are the number of Actions the ship can make in the Impulse. A “½” can only be used to move 1 or to make a turn in an even numbered g-turn (in an odd g-turn it can't move or turn). A 1 can be used either for a turn or for a move of 1 hex, etc. A 2 means the ship can make 2 Actions as above. Ships can substitute a side-slip for a move ahead provided all other conditions are met and will be met. So, ships often slow to 1 hex speed to turn immediately.

. . . . 2] Impulse Move Table . . Ships with both sail settings use the same 4 impulses.
Impulse . . . . . 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
speed-0* = 0 0 0* 0 The ship can only make its turn to dir. A in the 3rd Impulse.
.speed-½ = 0 ½ 0 0 A speed ½ ship moves 1 in an even numbered game-turn in the 2nd Imp. or 0 in an odd g-turn.
speed-1 = 0 1 0 0, where a 1 means it moves that impulse and 0 means it doesn't.
speed-1½ = 0 1 0 ½, with damaged rigging just use the new speeds, a ½ either moves 1 or 0 so its plain what to do.
speed-2 = 0 1 0 1 . . . . “Move” on this table means to expend MPs to perform Actions.
speed-2½ = ½ 1 0 1 This is only a fast ship in dir. C with Full sails, & optional.
speed-3 = 1 1 0 1
speed-4 = 1 1 1 1
Impulse . .. . . 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
speed-5 = 1 2 1 1, where 2 means move 2 in that impulse & the 1 means move just 1 in that impulse.
speed-6 = 2 2 1 1
speed-7 = 2 2 1 2

. . . 3] Ships move in the Impulses with a 1 and don't move in an Impulse with a 0. With Battle sails only 1 action can be performed in an Impulse (for exceptions see TC5 & rule6]b] ). When a turn is performed the stern may move into a new hex [like they did in the original rules] but this is temporary and never causes a collision. When 2 ships are to move in the same Impulse, the player with the faster speed ship decides which is moved 1st unless 1 has Full Sails set.
. . . 4] With Full Sails ships still use the same 4 impulses, but now ships often perform 2 Actions per impulse. There is no damage to confuse things. Ships with Full sails set always move before ships with Battle sails set.
. . . 5] The ships that have Full sails set move 1st. Then the ship that is moving slowest. Then alternate players moving his 1 slowest ship that can move in the impulse. We will need some way to mark ships that moved already when there are more than a few per side. I suggest very small cheap plastic pawns from a chess set placed near a ship to mark it. You need to move your own ships out of the way of ships behind them. You can collide with your own ships.
. . . 6] Ships can fire after any impulse. Actions, like loading the guns, now take some number of “impulses”. Round or Ball shot takes 6 impulses, double shot is 8, etc.

. . . 7] Different wind speeds can be handled [to some extent] by changing the time to do actions, like load guns. Lower wind speed becomes slower ships, slower ships means a game-turn and an impulse represents a longer time but the ships still move the same. So, guns can be loaded in 4 impulses, double shot in 6 impulses. Higher wind speeds do the opposite, now it takes 2 more impulses to load the guns than normal.

 
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Steve1501 wrote:
Using Impulses instead of the “pre-plot in the log” rule
. . .[I] The problems are 1] for solitaire play log plots don't work well,

Having played virtually all WSIM scenarios solo, many multiple times, I don't think that is correct at all.

Quote:
2] the 2nd guessing where he would go so you can rake him is way too easy,

No, it's not.

Quote:
3] collisions happen by accident too often.

Only if you plan your moves like that. There are reasons why historical fleets maneuvered very carefully.
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tms2 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
... g-turns are only 1.5 minutes long. ... Each game-turn is divided into 4 “Impulses”.

I would be concerned that with each impulse lasting only about 23 seconds you might be making the ships far more responsive than they were in reality.


    The big ships took over half an hour to tack, so I think we can suspend contact with reality on this particular issue, regardless of which rule set you use. There's a reason why the "Line Ahead" flag was kept on the top of the pile.

             S.

 
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tms2 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
... g-turns are only 1.5 minutes long. ... Each game-turn is divided into 4 “Impulses”.

I would be concerned that with each impulse lasting only about 23 seconds you might be making the ships far more responsive than they were in reality.

I have also reduced the ships turn ability by 1 turn per game-turn. I reduced the really big 44-gun Frigates by 2 turns /g-turn.

1st rate SOL can still make 1 turn /g-turn. But it can't be with their 1st MP expended unless they have or will use just 1 MP for the whole turn.

I also require that you write a log of how you move your ship after the fact, so that you know if you have met the requirements to turn again yet.

SOL & big Frig. must move 2 hexes ahead before they can turn again. Most or all other ships must move 1 ahead before they can turn again. These always apply even after a new g-turn starts. I might let cutters and other tiny vessels make 2 turns in a hex, I'm not sure yet.

So, now there are 5 Turn Classes. 1st & 2nd rate SOL are TC1. 3rd & 4th rate SOL are TC2. Big Frig. are TC3. Other Frig., Sloops,& Brigs, etc. are TC4. Schooners, Cutters, and other small F&A rigs are TC5.

Each class has different limitations in some way.

Crew quality also effects turning ability. Etc.

So, you see I have addressed to problem that the ships may be "too responsive". Also g-turns are 2 min. long & a hex is 75 yds. And the game is for single ship duels and small actions. The extra complications are too much for fleet actions unless you have a lot of people.

 
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